Samus Vs Sheik

[soberfox]

My nightmare Samus matchup. I have horrid troubles against Sheik with my Sammy, and my best bet is to counterpick with Mute City and abuse Shieks recovery by forward smashing her off again when she lands on the platform. Other than that, this is probably my hardest Samus matchup. I'd just like to get some tips from fellow Samus players that I'm sure are more experienced with the character than I am. (I just recently picked her up)

So...help away!

[Joker]

To be honest with you although Sheik may not be a counter for Samus exactly she can give Samus a nitemare like you said so I dont think there's all that much that one can do to possilbly 2-stock a good sheik for example...try and keep a charged shot and just read on the other threads to pick up as many tricks as possible to improve your game with Samus :beezo:

[Jasona]

to me, sheik is one of those characters with a ridiculously slow recovery. I usually edgeguard with bombs every time she tries to sweetspot the edge. The uair can take care of alot of her aerials, as long as you remember how her body changes position in her fair and bair. If you try to uair the front of her, then her fair will take her outta harms way. The most fun thing to do is to have a charge shot handy and fire it just above her needle range. Missles can be used the same way.

[UndrDog]

heh, I know I'll be flamed for this, but I consider Samus to be a Sheik counter. I play a good Sheik. ( who doesnt), but even though I know how Jasona plays it was very much an up hill battle.

[Jasona]

I've been praised:D

[HugS]

I think shiek counters samus. UndR...you crazy or something? Well I honestly feel that Uairs work very very well vs shiek. I also feel that vs shiek, samus has a better chance on platform levels rather than final D. Uairs are hard to pull off when the shiek is right in your face tossing needles and fairs at you preventing you to get below her. Thats just my opinion.

1 Needle stopping a charge shot...rediculous.
1 needle laying on the floor after being thrown stopping a chargeshot...priceless.

[Oro]

Sheik is by far Samus' worst matchup, and pretty much the only character matchup I ever switch characters in order to face. Needles hinder Samus' recovery a lot, and Samus' moving speed leaves her open to a lot of Sheik's attacks. It's also really hard to edge guard Sheik with Samus because Samus' ledgeroll is pretty slow, so you can't edge hog and roll on and smash them when Sheik teleports onto the stage.

Crouch cancelling tends to work pretty well against Sheik, but Sheik's grabs beat out defensive strategies like that. Any Sheik smart enough should be able to get past that.

Sheik's worst stages are DK 64 and Mute City, because there's no edge for her to grab, making edge guarding her pretty easy. However, there's no wall for Samus to grapple onto, either, so the two best stages to counter pick on Sheik don't really work in Samus' favor, either.

Sheik is by far Samus' most uphill battle. I'd say that if you don't include the characters that she can chain throw, Sheik's easiest matchup is against Samus.

Don't pick FD against Sheik, you should go to a platform stage and try to keep her above you. It's difficult to keep her above you when there aren't platforms to work with. You also have to play extremely smart, and predict whenever your opponent is going to try to hit you with a tilt or dash attack or something, and when they're going to try to grab you. If you expect an attack, crouch cancel and either dtilt and try to combo off it at low percentages, or downsmash and try to edge guard at high percentages.

[UndrDog]

my point is that the needles are useless against any Samus with enough since to shoot where the needles wont hit. Missles are a prime example. and any Samus with any skill can edgegaurd a Sheik with ease. her tilts are usless. CC a tilt and down-A her. only thing you have to look out for is her grab. if you can dodge the grab you're set. I've always seen Samus to be a Sheik counter and I've yet to experience anything to the otherwise.

[Oro]

The needles are not useless. They're great against Samus' recover, and they stun well enough to get a free grab. And if you CCC a good Sheik once, she'll stop hitting you every time and just start grabbing again.

I've always seen Samus to be a Sheik counter and I've yet to experience anything to the otherwise.

No offense Undr, but you and Jasona don't have much tournament experience at all. When have you guys ever seen a good Samus vs a good Sheik?

[Zarelid]

um I've played some pretty good sheiks with Samus and won BAM!!!!


Samuss only big problem with sheik is her **** needles, I mean look needles stop a fully charge blast and missles, 1 needle yeah that retarded, but hey everyone has something gay on Samus, thats just sheiks gayness. I mean what else does Sheik really have on Samus? I don't see Sheik countering Samus though, but it's an even fight. Sheiks kill moves suck you can't deny it, so Samus lives twice as long vs a sheik then any other character. Samus has INSANE combos, and her combos work VERY well vs a Sheik so she can **** Sheik over pretty well with damage, Sheik can **** Samus over by defending from those massivly damaging attacks. Samus can CC anything that comes at her by sheik, and counter it by CC down smash or whatever you want to do.


but I mean to solves all your never being able to get sheik with a blast shot, try this combo down throw blast XD. that gets em so don't complain about how Samus has it so hard, I mean can she be killed with ease by sheik? can she be chain thrown by Sheik!?!? nah Sheik don't rape Samus, just playing as Samus takes away major advantages Sheik has over msot characters. =/

[HugS]

Originally posted by UndrDog
my point is that the needles are useless against any Samus with enough since to shoot where the needles wont hit. Missles are a prime example. and any Samus with any skill can edgegaurd a Sheik with ease. her tilts are usless. CC a tilt and down-A her. only thing you have to look out for is her grab. if you can dodge the grab you're set. I've always seen Samus to be a Sheik counter and I've yet to experience anything to the otherwise.

CC isn't the greatest vs shiek. And a shiek is smart enough to know that the AIR is the place to be vs samus. CCing an ftilt is...idk...thats an extremely fast move...shiek may pull a shield before you hit...or be smarter than to hit your CC and grab instead. When a shiek is in the air...the needle spamming stops a lot. A whole dam charge shot.

And telling someone that needles are useless against a samus with enough sense to shoot where the needles wont hit is like telling someone that shield grabs are useless if a samus has enough sense to L cancel perfectly every time. Most shieks are good enough to guard their air space in front of them very well with needles. And shooting them out of the sky is very hard when a single needle can stop anything.

Though i do agree UndR...the least difficulty i have playing shieks is during the edgeguard. Shhh secrets... :)
A shiek edgeguard is hard to get around though.


To further explain why shiek counters samus,
120% + grab by shiek = death. You are set up for a Uair. You have to sit there and know that you are dead while he chops at your face in a grab. Maybe some lucky DI will save you...but chances are you are dead.

Jumped by mistake? Miss a sex kick? Forget about it. You are guaranteed a few hits before being able to land due to Samus's horrible fall speed and the hours she spends in the air after jumping. Shiek waltzes on under you and has her lesbian way with you.

Now some good things.

I think most samuses agree...uair = gold vs shiek.

I like to use grab combos as well vs shiek. Dthrow to fsmash works every time as long as they dont DI away from you...And most of the time they will...but never fear...a ftilt always lands on a DI away from you. And stick to platform levels...Dreamland/battlefield are good ones In my opinion.


Lol zarelid...ur just trying to make it seem like samus is top tier...and link is the only victim :).

[Zarelid]

lol! 120%%% omg wow Sheikd ies from like 80% from a grab lol!

and no Link is not the onyl victim, I'm just saying Samus is NOT a victim in this whole counter thingy.

you also say Samus misses a sex kick and shes screw, ever think about Sheik missing something? like Sheik misses an L cancel!! CC down smash then dead omg!!!!! whos got it worse? Samus missed a sex kick which has a **** load of prioity so few moves can beat it.

I mean come on Sheiks combos aren't as good on Samus as they are on every single other character! but Samuss combos work wonders on that effer known as Sheik! and you know it! Sheik can't play as well vs Samus Samus can play even better against samus!!! who has it better!?!?

[Jasona]

I still think that a sheik, trying to sweetspot the edge, is easily edgeguarded with bombs. I run off of the edge, drop it and get boosted, by the drop, back onto the level.

[UndrDog]

I'm sorry but aside from the needles, ( which cant be placed as well as missles ), I see nothing that is going for Sheik. all Sheik is is a combo machine with one great arial. she can combo you in the air which dosnt work on Samus. or combo you on the ground which dosnt work on Samus. and the fair is mainly used to end these combos which dosnt happen against Samus. the needles only work if Samus shoots the missle straight at you on the ground, which an intelligant Samus would never do. the needles are useless defensivlly from the air or while teching or rolling which is the best time to use the charged shot. every possible thing a Sheik will have to deal with during a match Samus has something to pwn her with. Jasona's point about edgegaurding Sheik is very much valid, and CCing nerfs Sheiks combo game. to me there is no question that Sheik has the uphill battle.

Oh, and about this.
To further explain why shiek counters samus,
120% + grab by shiek = death. You are set up for a Uair. You have to sit there and know that you are dead while he chops at your face in a grab. Maybe some lucky DI will save you...but chances are you are dead.


I'm not seeing this. again Samus has the physics to allow you to get behind and away from the nair, fair and the uair into the bair range but still be close enough to avoid the sweet spot which makes Sheiks move very weak. weak to the point that it will more then likely not even send her off the stage. and at that percentage you can do it everytime.

[CaliburChamp]

Sheik vs. Samus is an even match.

Heres why...

SHeik ownz Samus cuz of her needle guarding and d-throw to f-air.

Samus owz Sheik with her missle guarding, and Sheik has a very hard time gettin back to tthe level. Oh and her CC to downsmash to missle/charge beam. HURTZ!

Some of you samus players have different styles than others... one style counters Sheik.. the other style doesnt. So I call this match to be even. It can really go either way. And I play against this Samus player against my Sheik all the time. Vice Versa. Cause I play both Samus and Sheik as backup characters to my Link. So I know quite a bit about this odd matchup.

[HugS]

Originally posted by Zarelid

you also say Samus misses a sex kick and shes screw, ever think about Sheik missing something? like Sheik misses an L cancel!! CC down smash then dead omg!!!!! whos got it worse?

Let's face it...shiek missing an L cancel isn't the worst of things. Her air moves are so **** fast L cancels can be missed. Even without an L cancel...her lag isn't exactly the longest. So what? you are gonna sit there and take all these hits while you wait for a missed L cancel.

Originally posted by UndrDog


I'm not seeing this. again Samus has the physics to allow you to get behind and away from the nair, fair and the uair into the bair range but still be close enough to avoid the sweet spot which makes Sheiks move very weak. weak to the point that it will more then likely not even send her off the stage. and at that percentage you can do it everytime.


Let me fix what i said...a grab at 105 = death. A grab with a few jabs and a dthrow into a Uair = death. There's nothing you can do about it. The reason is because it is a combo...not just some luck of the draw. It is a combo...and samus dies from the top because of the uair at that kind of percentage. So screw your great recovery...you gotta deal with being easily grabbed and killed. How many other characters can grab combo samus? Not many.

Also...missles in the air are pretty easy to deal with as well. A needle thrown downward...or many needles...can stop it. Same with a charge shot. Not to mention a shiek can Fast fall it then take advantage of your lag and at least dash attack you. Not all the time of course..but you know what i mean. And hitting them out of roll outs with charge shots...that pwns everyone not just shiek...that doesn't make samus a counter to everyone now does it? And if i were a shiek...sweetspotting past a bomb wouldn't be the hardest of things to deal with...unless i was at edgehogging range...then why not just edgehog.

I understand what you guys are saying...but shiek does give me the most trouble out of any characters. Not talking about scrubby shieks...anyone can deal with those. You guys make some decent points...but there is no way in hell samus counters shiek. Its highly doubtful that samus vs shiek is an even match up. Shiek counters samus.

Like Oro said...a samus guru...Samus is generally slower than shiek. More so than other characters. The time that samus spends in the air after jumping is the biggest downfall. Samus is just slow at dealing with shiek.

[Zarelid]

well yeah she doesn't lag as much as others do but she does lag none the less and that sets up PERFECTLY for a CC down smash.

and what your saying is a fact that sheik NEEDS to change her playing style against a Samus, that makes it an up hill battle =/. Samus doesn't need to her combos are godly enough, and with sheiks weight Samuss combos are even MORE godly.

sure Samuss jump maybe slower then Sheik but wtf, I mean the slow jump doesn't **** Samus over, it can be dealt with. I mean what ****s Samus over that sheik can do? needles....what else? I can anme alot of things Samus can do to **** over Sheiks but your saying Sheik counters Samus, well how come Samus has more advnatges over sheik then Sheik does on Samus that would indeed make Samus a counter to Sheik. but I don't think they counter each toher I say ti's eevn.

[UndrDog]

you have to get Samus to that high of a percentage first. and Sheik without her combos, and Samus' CCDtilt and awsome combos, Sheik will gain damage faster and in the end will be off the edge and edgegaurded long before Sheik can get her up to that kinda damage.

[MLRS]

talking about it doesn't mean ****. it doesn't matter how a fight looks on paper, you won't know till you see it in action. thus, if you don't have very reliable experience in this matchup, shutup.

[UndrDog]

I think everyone here is familer with the match-up. any Samus player who hasnt gone up against a good Sheik hasnt been to any tournies. Jasona plays Samus as his main and used to main as Sheik. I dont know much about HugS from his matches, but I'm sure he too is familer with this. Zarelid also has experince with Sheik and Samus. perhaps if some Sheik players give thier opinion it might help. perhaps I'll make a thread simular to this in the Sheik room.

[PhillCollins]

Peach is a much worse match up.

[HugS]

No...
Well possibly in your opinion and experience. But shiek is a harder match up for samus than peach.

[Oro]

Why would a Sheik needle a missile? Anyone of Sheik's aerials or tilts are enough to stop a missile, and none of these attacks have enough lag for Samus to catch up to her and punish her on. Plus, she can duck almost any missile. Needles are only necessary to cancel out a charge blast.

Where do you get the idea that Sheik can't combo Samus? Samus is heavy enough most of Sheiks tilts won't knock Samus very far away, so she can continue with another tilt. If she hits you while you're in the air, you can't CC it, and even DIing fully away doesn't give you enough space to get out of her reach. So if she manages to hit you in the air, expect at least 40~50% before she lets go. When she does knock you away from her hits, it's difficult or impossible to counterattack without returning to the ground and preparing a defense. You just can't go back on the offense because Sheik will beat you in the air. Sheik is fast enough that she'll control the entire match.

Sheik's fair is a monstrous kill move at Samus, because at percentages just above 100, it sends you out at the most horrible angle. You'll be significantly below the stage by the time you get close enough, and she'll have a pretty easy time needling your bombs. If she manages to hit one or two, that can often be enough to kill you. Even if it doesn't directly kill you, your options from that low will be severely limited, and Sheik will have a pretty easy time to finish you off from there.

I have plenty of experience in this matchup on both sides, and it's much, much easier on Sheik than it is on Samus.

And would everyone please stop throwing the word 'counter' around. No characters in the upper or top tiers have actual counters, just slight advantages in certain characters matches and stages. That's what makes them so high in the tiers, they have enough options that whatever matchup they are given, someone who is truly good with that character will manage to work around it.

Anyways, this thread isn't supposed to be about whether Samus or Sheik have the advantage in the character matchup, it's supposed to be about which of Samus' options and offenses work best against a Sheik player. So let's start working on beating those **** Sheiks :D

[Joker]

Not to sound cocky or anything but it seems someone here other than me has played a relatively skilled Sheik..... big ups to Oro for saying what i couldn't type fast enough..:beezo:

[MLRS]

Alright then, anyone have any tips? I know someone who has some good info on fighting Sheik, but i'll leave it up to him to decide what information to share.

I'll start with some questions.
-Is Sheik heavy enough that u air to f air will work effectively?
-Is it easy to grab Sheik relative to other enemies?
-How should you best go about attacking a camping Sheik?

Like I said before, don't give any information unless you know what the **** you're talking about. Anyone found to not know what they're talking about will get made fun of to no end by Aftermath.

[Oro]

Uair -> fair works well on Sheik. I don't know the exact percentages it's best at, but you can get her on it. The only difficulty is in managing to put Sheik in a position wher she's open to uair. If you can get right below her when she jumps, you'll have an easy shot at this. But that would mean you would have to manage to be standing right next to her when she jumps, which is no easy feat. Platforms can work to your advantage in this respect. Ideally, Pokemon Stadium's platforms are the best. Dreamland's are too high most of the time, and the other platform stages have close walls, which are bad for Samus, and the third platform in the middle works more to Sheik's advantage than to Samus'. Dtilt also sets up for uair pretty well.

I don't grab very much in general, but Sheik seems like she'd be one of the hardest characters for Samus to grab. The only ones harder would be Fox and Falco. If you can get her to sheild a missile, you should have a pretty open chance to grab. If she's just sitting in her sheild though, she'll be too fast to grab, because she can just jump and avoid your grab. Although, coming down from that, she won't be able to punish you very heavily unless you're at a high percent.

I always feel that camping is oftentimes Samus' best strategy when she's leading against a Sheik. It's much to Samus' favor to play defensively becaus Sheik can knock out most of Samus' approaches. So if Sheik is up and starts getting defensive, you'll be in for a rough match. You should at least first start by trying to bait her out. Continue to be a bit defensive against her, but feint in like you're going to attack. If you can trick her into thinking that the battle's about to begin, she might begin an all out offensive and you can be ready to start your defensive strategy. If she won't fall for that, I would then try a few missiles at her, and if she shields, rush in with a shffled dair. If you can get her in her shield like this, you can start working Samus' magic when she's up close on someone's shield. If she refuses to start shielding, I'd walk up to her very slowly with ftilts just outside of her range. You really need to recognize all of your options in a situation such as this one and carefully work through all of them, and hopefully be able to outsmart your opponent. In any situation against Sheik you'll have to outsmart and outpredict her a lot in order to gain the lead.

[HugS]

Originally posted by Joker
Not to sound cocky or anything but it seems someone here other than me has played a relatively skilled Sheik..... big ups to Oro for saying what i couldn't type fast enough..:beezo:

Come on man...other people have played skilled shieks. Don't go saying that.

Well let me list what we got for some organization.

1. Uairs are great vs shiek...the main problem is getting under her.

2. Platform levels are the better options vs shieks.

3. Most shiek arials go through missles...so be careful about how close you shoot them.

4. Dthrow always connects with a forwardsmash or a forward tilt depending on the DI.

5. A defensive samus is better than an offensive samus vs shiek.

6. Uairs do in fact connect to fairs at certain at times.

7. Fairs can connect to sex kicks for KO's at times.
Well anymore thoughts?

[UndrDog]

8. properly placed bombs can ruin her recovery.
9. be careful of needle-guarding.
10. CC into d-tilt to avoid combos at lower percentages.
11. up-tilts can also be used to set up for F-Smash.

[Jasona]

Once, when I was fighting Undr's sheik, a long time ago, I had a unique experience. Undr jumps at me, I'm in the air, with an fair and I drop a bomb. The fair connects with the bomb and swings through it, but not into me. He then lands and immediately does a bair. I drop another bomb and the same thing happened. At some point, within the initial drop animation, attacks just pass right through samus, like a dodge. I think this is important, because I watched a fully charged shot go through Undr's samus, while he was dropping a bomb. Every hardcore samus player, who has been playing with her for a long time, has seen this at least once. Throw out some of your examples of this pseudo-dodge, with a bomb, and maybe we can figure out when samus is able to do this.

I originally thought that the bomb might have taken the hit for me, but I've never seen a charge shot hit something without exploding. Give your ideas on what might be happening. This samus vs sheik thing isn't going anywhere useful.

[CaliburChamp]

Originally posted by UndrDog
I think everyone here is familer with the match-up. any Samus player who hasnt gone up against a good Sheik hasnt been to any tournies. Jasona plays Samus as his main and used to main as Sheik. I dont know much about HugS from his matches, but I'm sure he too is familer with this. Zarelid also has experince with Sheik and Samus. perhaps if some Sheik players give thier opinion it might help. perhaps I'll make a thread simular to this in the Sheik room.

You forgot to mention me. I already mentioned I played Sheik and Samus as my backup characters. -_-

1. Uairs are great vs shiek...the main problem is getting under her.

Downsmash the Sheik. Samus' Downsmash is a Sheik killer as long as you have your charge beam fully powered up. I suggest using the downsmash, missle charge beam combo. And she has a great CC so samus can easily downsmash or d-tilt Sheik into the air. Then do whatever combo on Sheik which you guys already mentioned (like up-air to f-air etc...)

And Jasona, maybe it was a phantom hit that prevented you from flying back when Sheik's slap went through your bomb to reach Samus.

[Jasona]

There was no damage taken, so it wasn't a phantom hit

[Oro]

I've looked at the animation of Samus dropping a bomb in debug mode, frame by frame, and there are no invincible or dodge frames in it at all. Her hitbox remains vulnerable during the entire animation. The only possibilities are that either because her hitboxes shrink so much, she's more difficult to hit, or because her arm hit box is invincible during the bomb animation, but this hitbox is so small and moves around within her, that it's impossible for anyone not playing in debug mode to accurately judge where it is and how to use it.

[UndrDog]

while I was at my friend's house we tested this the best we knew how. he was Fox, I was Samus. he spammed laser shots while I attempted to dodge with the bombs. in normal speed we noticed that one laser shot almost always made it through. but was could determine whether it was because I was too high or if it was really sorta like a dodge. so we did it in 2/3, 1/2, and 1/4 speeds. and though we never had one that passed through the middle of Samus' ball or the top of it, one did make it through. in this situation it would've hit me just below the center of my morph ball. perhaps I'll get Jasona to try it with me too and record it. Oro may be right about the hit box being small and parts of Samus really arent there for some reason.

[HugS]

Calibur Champ....no offense man but how the hell do you go about linking a downsmash into a missle chargeshot combo on shiek. I am just not seeing it man.

[UndrDog]

my guess is that you D-Smash and as Sheik is going over you you jump, turn and fire your charged shot as Sheik is decending. but that would have to be at a certain percent. but I dont think Sheik's stun would last that long. =/

[Jasona]

Ok Oro, now I have a better idea of what happened.. thx

[D-Man]

Dont even play Samus against Sheik
Its no point to it.
Samus gets pwned.

[CaliburChamp]

Calibur Champ....no offense man but how the hell do you go about linking a downsmash into a missle chargeshot combo on shiek. I am just not seeing it man.
I dont take offense to it. I re-read my statement and realized I forgot to add in something. And that is... that samus downsmash works best close to the edge of a stage like FD. Downsmash Sheik close to the edge, now you can edgeguard her with a missle or charge beam. YOu see the downsmash sets her up for this and If this was done over plain ground then she can reach ground tech and/or shield the projectiles. But since Sheik is over the edge, she cant touch ground, and if you have a charge beam fully powered up, that makes it even harder for the Sheik to get around it cause she is totally vulnerable in the air with that set up. And if somehow Sheik manages to edgehog and attack with edge attack or edge drop to f-air, Samus can just CC and downsmash again, making Sheik vulnerable again to that strategy. I hope I make sense now.

[Zarelid]

Originally posted by D-Man
Dont even play Samus against Sheik
Its no point to it.
Samus gets pwned.


how would you know!? you don't play Samus vs Sheik how would you know!?!?


don't be dumb

[soberfox]

Wow, never thought that the topic of Sheik countering Samus was even a controversy...I thought it was just an accepted fact. I do see where everyone is coming from though, and maybe I have been convinced that Shiek isn't quite a "counter" but I definetly, DEFINETLY KNOW that Samus is not a Shiek counter. I still think Shiek is a bad matchup if both players are evenly skilled...I just don't see how she isn't a bad matchup. Undr discussed some things that make me think she isn't a counter, but a bad matchup she is most definetly.