Roy vs. Falco and CF

[Dooie]

Alright, I tried posting this once, but my computer sucks. No, don't think "it's just cuz he's a n00b". This site gave me that label. Anyway to make a long story short(er)...

I play my friends for a few hours on the weekends, and if we play 30 matches, I win twice, maybe 3 or 4 times if I get lucky. I'm not bad at this game, I beat the 2 hands and the Giga-bowser/Ganondorf/Mewtwo stage with marth and roy. Anyway I can't freaking win because of their ground tactics.

A match versus my friend who uses Falco and my friend who uses CF goes like this:
20 seconds of continuous WDing, shielding and air dodging, followed by one person getting maybe 5% damage...repeating until someone gets an item to give them an upper hand. Falco usually wins because he shines everything, can combo his smash attacks, and has virtually no recovery time for any of his standard tilts/smashes/grabs/WDs.

A match between me (Roy) and Falco and CF:
I WD with them, get tired of it and expose myself trying to actually do an attack, succumb to a fully charged smash attack. Get bounced around between CFs items and Falcos wind-down-time-less smash attacks and "Gay-zar" (laser, for the slow), become frusterated. Accidently step on a mine. Become more frustrated. Amidst anger, forget about the Shine, use super scope on Falco, die. This happens or I try to get back on the edge, but of course Falco's d-smash sends opponents either straight down or straight across, unlike all the other d-smashes which send you up or diagonally up. If he isn't WDing, Falco also likes to run and jump around the stage and hit you with the Gay-zar, move on to a new spot, hit you with it again until, repeat until you either have a huge percent or make a mistake trying to get close to him.

I don't worry so much about CF, since his moves actually take time for him to recover. But between the shine which reflects all projectiles exactly back where they came from, the lack of wind down on his smash attacks, the Gay-zar, and the overall relative speed, Falco is a much more annoying target.

I think my friends picked their characters based on who is better against roy. I just need a way to deal with these guys. They barely use arial attacks, unless they have a bunny hood or a screw attack. Like I said, its all WDing and running and jumping to get items with a few smash attacks in between. If all I need is to master the timing of WDing, I'll do it, but somehow I have the feeling the nice folks at HAL didnt plan for SSB to be a 20 minute dodging stalemate. Again, I'm pretty good, and I'm awesome with the counter if that helps. They DO jump alot, they just dont usually "attack" as much in the air. I know they fall fast, but so far I havent been able to exploit it...

Thanks alot (sorry about the length and the rambling, but I just got really frustrated after the last encounter and I want to stick it to them)

[Dooie]

and just to reaffirm my "good at this game" status, even though I come in last frequently, my friends are constantly saying "woah how did you do that?" and i can get 1 or 2 sweet, perfectly timed KO's in each match along with 1 or 2 others. (BTW our standard round is a 3-life stock match with Roy, CF, and Falco.)

[aho43]

Sounds like you are playing FFA with items on. FFA is a bad assesment of how good you are. In FFA you can just sit at the side and let the other people screw each other up, and if they both come at you to punish you, you are expecting it so its easy to avoid. Items? Try turning them off.

Try playing 1v1 and see how you do. Do you L-cancel? Beating crazy hand and master hand is no amazing feat, trust me. How good is your competition? Does the falco SHL? Does the C. Falcon chain his aerials well?

Falco and Falcon's strengths are their aerial games, while Roy's ground game is one of his strengths. If they stay on the ground alot you should punish with shield grabs. Falco's smash has plenty of wind down lag, just shield, and grab.

Roy can punish a Falco very easily. The move is called d-tilt. The move you combo with is called fsmash. And you can chain throw him too. Falco's recovery is easily abused by Roy, Falcons too for that matter. And about that lazer, jump over it, or powershield. Dtilt rocks fast fallers, here is a lil vid to give a demonstration. The vid is against a CPU that doesn't DI, but you get the idea of how useful Dtilt can be for roy.

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ahong/Smash_Vids/Aho(Roy)-10-77-KO.wmv

[Dooie]

Yeah I'm usually good about avoiding the laser and alot of other quick moves, but I eventually get so angry because of terrible luck (i wont even begin to go into that...just take my word - god hates me) that i stop caring about tactics and just try to bully my way to falco and then gett my butt whooped.

My friends are good...one summer they spent an entire week mastering the WDs. They're alot better at avoiding being hit than attacking. Theyre either WDing on the ground, throwing items, or jumping through the air. I get so caught up in their mind games. I just realized, they lure me in by avoiding me and then wait for me to make a mistake in my frustration while coming to get them.

...and their ground game is just the catch. It's all just WDing through my WDs and then I try to attack, they go through it and kick me in the back. But thanks for the advice, I'll try to put it to some use.

[Rune]

The key is obviously Roys top move.. his forward smash. Falco will die from this baby at insanely low %.. the thing is it's slow, so you should get a fast set up move that will enable you a free forward smash.

You're in luck, Roy has tons of these. ^^

Down tilt into Fsmash is my fav, just sit down and take their attack. You won't move at lowish % becaue of the crouching, just Dtilt them while they're stunned and they'll pop up into the air in front of you.. all you have to do now is give 'em some sweet Fsmash ****.

Down throw into Fsmash also works wonders unless they tech it.. which they won't if you do it fast and out of nowhere. Besides, they're playing fastfaller chars, teching with those is a bit harder.

If you get a bit better you can try shffled Fair and Dair into Fsmash at slightly higher %.

Another nice attack in FFA is the DED (for B).
Just take as much distance as possible (while still in reach) and do forward, forward, down.. if they shielded the down will push them away, if they didn't follow up with a up or forward. Great fun. ^^
Just hacking away with forward forward forward (no 4th attack) works pretty good as well btw.

Anyhow, I'm a Marth player, I don't know too much about Roy, just wait for someone like Mookie to take a look at this.

[Dooie]

I used to use marth alot, and still do. Would you do anything different to Falco and CF if you were marth?

[Rebel581]

Use dtilt with Marth for edgeguarding. Not for the same way Roy would use dtilt. And I'd tell you to get farther away and use fmsash with Marth, use A moves more, and to be in the air a lot using nair and fair mainly.

[Dooie]

And is it true that Marth's counter does a "fixed" amount of damage like a tilt and Roy's does 1.5 times the attack being countered. Well I know Roy's does, but I still am not sure about Marth's.

[Lxl]

Yes, it's true. Marth's counter only does 7% and slowly drops as you use it within a single life, as do all the moves of everyone else. Knockback varies with your opponent's percentage and the move you counter.

I won't suggest anything on Roy, even though this is all about Roy and his matchups, since I don't know about him too well. I do know Marth however...

Rebel581 mentioned many of Marth's primary tactics, and I'd like to emphasize that his edgeguarding game rocks the house. Especially so on the two characters CF and Falco, whose recoveries are easily exploited. Dtilt, edgehog to bair, even fair are all suitable on them. I shan't dwell too much on this since it's rather obvious..

In comparison to Roy, I'd use Marth's throws a lot more. His throws set up for the feared tipper, and it works on the fastfallers at mid-high percents. Near the edge, it sets up for Marth's feared edgeguarding game =). Take note that Falco and CF are relatively fast characters, and Marth's fsmash does have a bit of a wind-down lag. I won't use it too much, and thankfully his tilts compensate for it. His ftilt and fair help prevent them from getting at your face, which is an added advantage on CF. And even if they do rush you (as they should, given their characters), you can shield grab them and follow up with desired combos.

That's all I'll say for now, I'm tired. Rune can come add on to this, or correct me if I'm wrong.

[Rune]

In comparison to Roy, I'd use Marth's throws a lot more. His throws set up for the feared tipper, and it works on the fastfallers at mid-high percents. Near the edge, it sets up for Marth's feared edgeguarding game =).
Don't under estimate Roy's throws, his down throw sets up for his sweetspot Fsmash quite well.. which hurts.

Another note, Marth's throws work well on fastfallers at low % as well.. down throw done swiftly will not grant them time to tech unless they have insane reaction speed. Followed up by a Fsmash obviously. And there's ofcourse the upthrow chain which when done right either ends around 40% or in yet another Fsmash.

Everything into Fsmash! ^^

Anyhow, rest of what you said sounds right to me.

[Umbreon]

turn off items and pray. Really, who wants God against them?

[MookieRah]

Rune pretty much said anything that I would have. The only other thing I can think of is the > ^ > DED combo. If they don't CC then it's almost as devastating as a forward smash.

If your opponent doesn't know how to DI you can have lots of fun. You can litterally downtilt them across FD starting at around 30% and finish them off with DED. You can do the same with the dash attack at roughly 50%. I really doubt that anyone would be stupid enough to let that happen, but it's fun to do in practice mode when you are bored :-P.