doc vs. top tier

[thedocsalive]

I have three friends who play the game as well as I do (non-advanced techniques, but very skilled "scrubs" if you will), and they play as Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I play as Dr. Mario and i can handle Marth by spamming him (:)) and messing with his head. I've been trying to learn the advanced techniques such as shffl'ing, WD'ing, CC'ing, etc. to get an edge on Fox and Sheik, but they are in fact very difficult for me to execute :(. Any tips on executing these techniques, or beating Sheik and Fox without them?

[JJ]

well it takes practice i can't do no of that stuff either to perfection but you got to keep practing.

[Nephilim]

D smash the Fox.

Cape his recovery and throw pills at him. If anything though just cc d smash whenever the Fox is near you.

[thedocsalive]

thanks for the tips on fox, and yes ill be sure to keep practicing those techniques, tho WD'ing is a *****

[thedocsalive]

btw, where could i download videos of players WD'ing, shffl'ing, etc.? maybe seeing it would help me out :D

[Glide]

check the Smash Discussion boards for a post about Captain Jack's website; you'll see plenty of Doc vids up there, and a lot of them against Shiek and Fox believe it or not. I'll post a link here later if I feel like it and find it for ya =P

http://ssbm.captainjack.jp/index2.html

There ya go! Click on "Serious Matches" in the upper right corner area, and there's a butt load of matches.

[thedocsalive]

thanks...ill be sure to check 'em out

[Mak10]

Hey,
I've been playing this game for about 2 years and I primarily use the doc. I play with other players as well but mainly to learn how they work and to figure out how to beat them. Anyway the advanced techniques are important but not necessary. I know how to do them and occasionally throw them in but heres what i would suggest focusing on kind of in order of importance.

1. learn your character, includes reach, speed, combos, pretty much just figure out what works when, you can beat anyone if you know exactly what to do in each situation.

2. learn the short hop and fast fall, this might not be an adv. tech. but if you dont use it, learn it, its huge. (and if you play with items, learn to grab items while passing through platforms) ...oh and crouch cancelling, its easy to learn....just crouch

3. tech rolling...it'll save you lots of times.

4. i would leave wave dashing and shffl last, even l-cancelling....not really necessary for most characters, the time you save is miniscule, and if you know your character enough you wont even need to rely on those things at all.

[maelstrom218]

Mak10, I don't want to be too insulting, but I think that you're severely underestimating the significance of advanced tactics. I'll agree that getting to know your character is important in establishing a strong foundation b/c knowing their range, weight, and overall feel makes you a better player.

But to claim that wavedashing and shffl'ing are "not really neccessary for most characters" and that "the time you save is miniscule". . .I'll have to disagree w/you strongly on this point.

It's true that "scrubs," if you will, can be skilled w/o advanced strats. And it's very possible for that same scrub to beat a person who shffls and wavedashes, if that scrub has better mindgames and a better grasp of their character.

But it's inaccurate to belittle the advantage that you get if you incorporate wavedashing and shffl'ing into your gameplay. The available options that you have in a battle situation increase exponentially when you incorporate advanced strats.

You move faster when wavedashing. You can use standing attacks while moving if you link wavedashing w/tilts and smashes. You have more combo options. You can link multiple aerial attacks together for maximum damage. You can get easier, faster KOs by wavedashing to edgehog. In short, using advanced strats increases your potential.

W/o shffl'ing and wavedashing, Fox has no infinite combo, controlling Luigi becomes nigh impossible because of his slippery traction, and Samus basically rolls to her doom, because a blind kid could practically anticipate and take advantage of her roll's tremendous lag.

If you want Doc-specific examples, look at his Aerial Forward A (the midair fist attack). This is by far his best move b/c of its great damage and knockback--it's up there w/Sheik's, Luigi's and Falcon's AFA. But if you don't L-cancel it, you end up with such tremendous lag that it's almost unusable. Your opponent can basically make a cup of tea and sip it while eating scones during the time you take to recover from the AFA's bloody lag. In the same vein, if you don't L-cancel his Aerial Down A, you can't link it to his killer down-smash. W/o L-canceling, Doc becomes a bumbling oaf who can't possibly keep up w/ Fox, and will inevitably fall prey to his quick flurry of attacks.

I apologize if it seems like I'm in a hissy fit, but I don't want people getting the idea that they'll be perfectly fine if they ignore advanced strats like wavedashing and shffl'ing. That happened to me, and I thought my n00bish Link could take on an advanced Fox. The result the most humiliating experience of my life.
</longwinded rant>

thedocsalive, don't get discouraged by the difficulty of wavedashing and shffl'ing. Just keep on studying those vids of experts, and try out the moves that you see them pull off. It'll take a heck of a while before you'll be able to consistenly pull off these strats, but if you keep practicing, you'll get it. It took me about half a year or more before I could do it myself.

There's more vids on DC++, you can download it here:

DC++ Thread for Smash Vids (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=42618)

Search for "Mike," as he has an excellent Doc.

btw, if you watch Captain Jack's vids, you'll see that Doc tends to have excellent Aerial Up A juggling ability vs. Sheik/Marth. As for Fox, just cape the Firefox (his up b), and edgehog for the Fox Illusion (his side b). And if you can grab Fox (though difficult), d-throw+d-smash is excellent, or you can chainthrow him w/ continuous u-throws at mid-%s, though it can be DI'd. And Pill Spam. There should be a thread on this board on how to pull it off effectively.

[Erusmors]

Very well put maelstrom. Doc has a pretty **** decent wavedash, which gives great possibilities for wavesmashes/tilts. Also, L-canceling can mean the difference from being shield-grabbed from an aerial and following up with a quick attack.

[losvedir]

lol, maelstrom, you have a gift for writing... :-p

And hello everyone!

[Mak10]

maelstrom,
i wasn't in anyway belittling the advantage that can be gained from using tactics such as wavedashing and shffl'ing, i'm merely stating in prioritizing tactics, taking into account difficulty, and necessity in game play, i would leave these for last. While it may not be obvious, it does become apparent that these tactics can help, and this is especially seen in the link to the videos you provide. However, i feel like too many people feel that these tactics are an essential element to victory. Of course, that are part of the game, and yes, they do provide slight advantages in situations, however, I feel that there is no better skill to learn that to get a well rounded understanding of your character, and other characters. I feel that truly mastering this game has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you can l-cancel, if you can wavedash effectively, or if you can pull off a shffl everytime you attempt to. I feel that mind games (which i'd prefer to think of as intelligent play style) and a heightened understanding of the game so that you know what your opponents next move will be goes a lot further, and actually outweighs any benefit you can receive from simply knowing advanced tactics. I don't mean to make this sound as though one shouldn't learn advanced tactics, since they can expand your options in battle, i'm simply trying to emphasize that tactics don't make a player good, intelligent play style and ability to anticipate your opponents next move does.

[PXTalon2000]

What you aren't taking into account is that the advanced techniques allow you to more properly implement mindgames. Know what happens when you miss an L-cancel? You get grabbed.. Smashed. Punished. You can't rely on not making mistakes. Heck, you can hit Doc's dair, miss the L-cancel, and get hit back, say by Luigi, and that could be the end of your stock.
Unless you can L-cancel, you will not be able to combo nearly as well with your character (Doc excepted a little because you can frequently chain uairs without L-canceling, nonetheless his most powerful aerial combo starters are meaningless without L-canceling); knowing the timing for L-cancel is therefore completely essential to knowing your character in the first place. L-canceling means more for the money; after your mindgames have earned you the first hit, you have better combos.
If you can't L-cancel right, a person who should be losing to you will beat you with inferior mind games, because you'll have lag, and you'll get punished and grab comboed, and you'll get hit back before you can defend yourself. Hei, if you miss an L-cancel with Fox, you might get yourself chaingrabbed 'til the end of your stock.
Shuffling = ability to combo = better knowing your character's capabilities, but there are far more technical nuances one must understand in a character than shuffling.
You said that you're supposed to learn combos as a first priority, but if you don't know how to shuffle you won't be able to execute half your character's potential. I guess the difference between continuing a combo and getting nailed by a sex kick can count as a "slight advantage".

Similarly, you will not be able to react appropriately to many situations without wavedashing. Not knowing how to wavedash means you commit every time you put up a shield. That means whenever you put up a shield your opponent has the opportunity to limit your options and get you right where he wants you. Without WD from the shield you will block attacks that you should be able to punish from the shield, and then simply have to run away or try an aerial attack because of the spacing (the aerial will be, of course, too slow, and not L-canceled, will get you shield grabbed, and we go from there)

I'm not sure why we call them "advanced techniques". They're fundamental to the way we play now. And what the heck, tech rolling? That's barely important... 'specially with Doc. Just, like, throw a pill before you hit the ground or L-cancel something.

[theduffman]

I think what he's trying to say (I'm not sure if I agree) is that you can introduce advanced techniques into your game whenever you like. They'll make you a better player BUT if you want to become more skilled, you should try to work on your mindgames.

Advanced techniwues wont make you more skilled, so don't rush yourself to learn advanced techs. I *think* thats his idea.

[Mak10]

Yes, thanks Duffman, that is what i am trying to say. Talon, i agree with you in that these additional tactics do expand your possible repertoire, and rightfully so, it adds to your possibilities during battle.

I feel that our difference in views doesn't even stem from the importance of these tactics, i think it would simply be reflected in our styles of play. While playing smash brothers, every sequence of events or moves can simply be viewed as a series of actions and reactions. Talon, in the example you provide, you simple state examples when a doc player makes a flawed action, and is punished by the enemies reaction. I suppose, all i am saying is that nothing should outweigh mindgames, not even addition of a few additional tactics. If you have a good enough understanding of your character and play intelligently, you begin to understand what your opponents choices are in situations, and rather than acting, you react to what you know are the possible likely outcomes, and you control the pace of the game. I am in no way saying the adv. tactics are worthless, once again, they do broaded your choice of possible attacks, i am simply stressing that nothing should outweigh an all encompasing knowledge of the characters, and intelligence in play.

[thedocsalive]

well against my friend as fox mindgames are useless since we know exactly what the other will try to do. i know that ultimately he wants to dash A me into an up smash or f smash, and i try to counter that by shielding, rolling, or supersheeting him into a dsmash or fsmash

he knows that i try to hit him with SH aerials, and he dodges out of the way and then tries to smash me from behind

we can foresee each other's moves...its really just a matter of execution

so...yes im trying to learn the advanced techniques to get an edge on him

[Bob Money]

with the dash a..shield grab
try to cc more especially when it gets him off the stage.
U get fox off the stage its over.
U dont need to Sh aerial too much vs fox
use your Wd and dont play at his tempo, just take advantage fo what he gives you when your at the edge of thew level.
HECK i EVEN up out of sheild when im sick of the reflector.
Grab fox and beat him down.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[PXTalon2000]

Mih... What I was saying was you absolutely cannot understate the importance of L-canceling (the thesis being that having lag negates your mindgames because it introduces a giant hole into your game). Maybe you can understate WD's importance, but L-cancels change the way you play the game.
Lemme quote you:
"even l-cancelling....not really necessary for most characters, the time you save is miniscule, and if you know your character enough you wont even need to rely on those things at all."
Do you still agree with that? Do you see how wrong that statement sounds?

And in your first post.. You put techrolling in front of advanced techs. Teching is overrated. Its necessity is pretty situational.

[Cyphus]

this is taken from my doc guide.....which i still don't get why its not sticked >.<



Fox/Falco
Fox and Falco have that thing called a reflector(and most likely you've faced your fill of them already) Though they can use your projectile against you..then CAN'T take the advantages of them, you can...because they are temporarily unable to move if they reflect something...and because YOU shot the pill, and can be expecting it, you should plan ahead. You have a cape, that if hits them AND the pill will do awesome damage...so in this sense you should keep extra distance from fox and falco when spamming. Shooting pills in air earlier is also a good thing, because you'll have time to take offense and attack over the reflected pill(i reccomend Drill/Sex Kick that way you can cancel out your own pill and continue through hitting them) And your white sheet is plenty to stop any laser spam, dead in its tracks. Though sadly since both of ya'll can defend against projectiles, they're will be less of that, than in most fights, and the majority of the time you will be in the chaos of the melee, where you should concentrate on backthrows by ledge, and upthrows to upsmashes(IF you can manage some grabs) Against the space animals, i suggest reduce tilting, because their fallspeed at low damage can allow them to hit u right after...so Wd and downsmash with that good reach, to make their approach even harder. White sheet completely owns their normal recovery, but for the Illusions, you'll have to space yourself more, and be grab-happy. If anything, but top skill level in the fight, Doc usually counters them.

Marth
Marth, in particualr can be a big problem to the doc. Outside of outranging him he easily cancels out his pills w/ his big quick attacks. EdgeGuarding Marth's UpB is also insanely difficult. You should start w/ pills, but if the Marth player works his way through easily, you need to get CLOSE as you can instead, juggling him w/ Jab to grabs early on into a couple UpAirs, and be alert to sidestep to downsmash, which punish him tremendously. White Sheet will send him back even if it just touches the tip of his sword, but you should use it seldom, since most of the time, since his hits go Around so much, he'll hit you anyways. Marths biggest problem is not easily getting out of early juggles, since his D.air is too risky, and he has not a sex kick like Doc, so focus on getting under him as much as possible and DO worry about getting that last little hit, because every damage counts, and its not easy for him to punish from above. Easiest KO's on marth are gonna be from D.Smash, since his DocPunch is so easily Uptilted away. Marth players, in general, prefer attacking relentlessly, so they can be predictable at times...this always gets them...WD at them into a sidestep..then punish as you like. TriangleJumping(jumping forward, then immediately airdodging into the ground diagonally, in from of them), as far as usefulness goes really depends more on the Marth Player, than Marth, himself, because his options are plenty(counter,shieldgrab,dasdance,attack,ect) when being assaulted. Doc's bad recovery + Marth's edgeguard is gonna make you cry...but his UpB is still good-as far as safety is concerned. If marth dashdances he wants to psyche you out for an attack or grab...so WD backwards into a SH pill to play it safe. If you fight Marth right, you'll see the pill is mightier than the sword............well maybe not, but it sounded cool.

Sheik
Sheik's needles are docs main prob. Charged, they'll tear through pills and hit you, and a timed needle will ruin your D.Jump return to the stage. Not much you can do, but constantly watch her, more than yourself...waiting for the needles, and cape her needle when your trying to get back(or if neccessary, literally fast fall to avoid it THEN use your d.jump) Sheiks early juggles can be stopped w/ Doc's sex kick, like it or not, and sheiks weight and size make her the ideal character to D.Throw into a F.Smash. If you don't know how to recover well and avoid her needles, you're in trouble. Either way, Doc will have a hard time w/ her imfamous F.Tilts...at least her chain throw doesn't last that long on him. Doc's pills work great on Sheik..use them to your hearts content..she can't easily swipe them away, nor reflect!-oh JOY! Playing defensive against sheik works pretty well, but sidestepping is NOT so great since all her attacks microscopic lag is followed by another attack. Anytime sheik goes aerial, dash under her, jump and UpAir...her D.air is much too slow to be used effectively in most situations, and her sex isn't even good. Basicly, Doc can combo sheik into a finisher from alot more circumstances than she can on him...Doc is regarded as a fair Sheik-counter in Japan from his combos, and I can't argue much.

[VilNess]

nice input meleemasterx!

I´d add the importance of up and f-tilts (especially upangled f-tilt) against Marf because these tilts come fast and outspeed many Marth´s attack and still have enough range.