Differences between Doc and Mario

[Thomas Tipman]

what are the differences between these two? i know marios fair spikes while docs sends them flying foward, marios fireballs bonce lower than docs pills, and i think mario can wall jump and doc cant but thats all i know.

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Doc's fsmash has more power but less range than Mario, maybe some other A attacks are similarly different(its an oxymoron!)
Mario's cape has a lot more horizontal recovery, u don't use it for Doc other than stall.
Doc's up b has more knock back

[Rebel581]

The pills are different And the fair being different is enough to change their playing style's for me 0_o I hate Mario's fair. And I think Doc's dsmash is better too. Oh, and you can juggle with usmash easier.

[VilNess]

Their similiraties are actually mostly in their weight (NTSC version), falling speed, lagtime in most of their attacks (A,A,a combo is different for example)
And their attacks differ a bit from each other, like knockback angle of bairs (doc kicks lower)

[Thomas Tipman]

maybe its just me but i kinda feel like im playing a faster game when i use mario, doc is more of a power player when i use him. thats jusy my opinion.

[Flarefox]

I think that doc's pills are more effective than mario's fire. Mario's fire travels too fast in my opinion, making it hard to follow them with anything. On the other hand, doc can lay out a big line of bouncing, slow pills. These are easy to follow up and provide cover and an easier entrance for doc.

by the way, why is doc lower in the tier list than mario? Doc has an awesome fsmash, nice dsmash, nice juggling up air, decent b air, better projectiles, powerful prioritized up b, and an awesome wd. What is it about mario that bumped him up higher than doc?

[JJ]

Actually, i think Doc is better to me. But that is just me.

[maelstrom218]

Mario is considered better b/c of his recovery, f-smash, Cape, and combo-ability.

Doc's f-smash is almost useless b/c it has no range. Sure, its a great KO move, but you're not going to have many opportunites to use it, especially against characters w/better range or disjointed hitboxes.

Mario's f-smash is miles better simply b/c of its greater range. Even though it's unreliable at best, if you can sweetspot it, it's a serious advantage over Doc.

Both Doc/Mario rely primarily on their shffl'd aerials, and in that respect, Mario is definitely better. His aerials (w/ the exception of his AFA) have better knockback, greater range, and higher damage than Doc's. And Mario's mediocre AFA is a meteor smash, which is something that Doc lacks.

And as for combo-ability, Mario has more combo potential b/c of his u-tilt, which knocks opponents directly upwards, as opposed to Doc's, which knocks them forward (except if he's right under them). And even if Mario's AUA pushes opponents further back than Doc's AUA, it has greater range, which makes juggling possible.

So yeah. . .that's probably why Mario is higher on the tiers than Doc, even if he does have the Pills and AFA/d-smash.

[Glide]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all of Mario's attacks, barring his triple A combo have the same execution speed and lag, while all their aerials have the same range. Also, if memory serves, Mario's B-air is more powerful, as well as his up-smash. His d-smash lacks in power in comparison to Doc, and his cape has more horizontal distance while Doc has more vertical on his hitbox.

[Qwester]

Although Mario suffers difficulty when trying to KO, this is the only real advantage Doc has over Mario apart from the pills. There is no difference in the speed of any of Mario and Docs moves apart from the neutral A, A, A combo and a few frames extra lag on some of Docs attacks. If anything trading hits is better for Mario as his sex kick does more damage initially for breaking out of juggles and such.

Marios advantages include the range on a few key moves (f-smash, d-smash, tilts.) Far better recovery and combo ability due to reduced knockback on some moves.

However, Doc has multiple ways to KO Mario and Mario has very few, if Doc just stays in the centre when fighting Mario, he's probably going to get the KO first and should Mario get him off the edge, he's going to recover.

ALL CREDIT TO GO TO USEA FROM THIS POINT ON

okay, aerial differences: (except for damage and knockback. though you can figure those out yourself)

**neutral aerial**
1) mario's can hit for 1 frame longer
2) mario's has less landing lag, but also less stun so in the end it equals out. both have a frame advantage of -1 or -3 (depends if you sweetspot it)
3) mario's sweet spot is in the first 4 attack frames. doc's is in the last twelve attack frames. ie it's much easier to hit with his sweet spot
4) doc's has a tiny bit more range at first, but in the second half doc's hitboxes shrink a little so they're smaller than mario's (during his sweetspot)

**forward aerial**
1) again, doc's stuns for longer, but has more landing lag. however, this time it's not equal. mario's frame advantage is -2, doc's is -3.
2) doc has more range.

**down aerial**
1) mario has a special extra hit. if you land while doing this move, two hitboxes (one on each side) appear on the ground next to mario for 2 frames.
2) again, doc stuns for longer, but mario has less landing lag. because of this and mario's extra hit, mario's frame advantage is -8, doc's is -9

**back aerial**
1) mario's can hit for 1 frame longer
2) mario's both stuns longer and recovers faster. doc's frame advantage is -4, mario's -1
3) doc's has more range

**up aerial**
1) mario has less landing lag, his frame advantage is -1, and doc's is -3

overall, mario is slightly quicker in some aerials (l-cancelling time is shorter. the moves don't come out quicker, and don't last less time).
and overall doc has more range (and knockback/damage I assume?) in some aerials.

when the range of the moves differ, I took some screenshots to illustrate the differences. in the shots, yellow is where the character can be hit, and red is where the attack can hit other players. doc is on the left, mario on the right. (mario is slightly thinner)

http://www.smashinfo.com/mariodoc/
they're grouped by move, and numbered according to which attack frame they are

refer to my next post for the specific frame data if you want to look at it for yourself. it has an explanation of "frame advantage" if you want to read it.

all data is from NTSC version 1.0

________________________________

*an explanation of the terms*
-EX (execution): the number of frames BEFORE the first attack frame
-AC (attack): the number of frames in which attacking hitboxes are present
-RE1 (recovery): the number of frames in the move's animation after the last attack frame
-RE2 (recovery): the number of frames after the last attack frame before you can act again
-stun: the number of frames a defending player will be stuck recoiling in their shield from the attack. corresponds to a heavy shield
when multiple numbers are given, it refers to sweet spots or different attacks during the move.
-lag: the number of frames for which you're recovering on the ground after landing during this aerial move (both l-cancelled and normal times are listed)
-ADV (advantage): a number indicating which player will be able to act first after a shield strike, and by how much (positive = attacker)
ie: if cfalcon knees an opponent's shield, hits the ground right away and l-cancels, he will be able to act 1 frame before the shielding player can (because of shield stun). thus cfalcon's knee would have a +1.
-total: the total number of frames from the beginning until you can act again

***MARIO***
-NA-
EX: 2
AC: 30
RE1: 13
RE2: 13
stun: ss-7, 5
lag: 8, 16
ADV: -1, -3
total: 45
sweetspot: first four AC frames. more damage/stun/knockback

-FA-
EX: 17
AC: 5
RE1: 52
RE2: 37
stun: 8
lag: 10, 21
ADV: -2
total: 59

-DA-
EX: 9
AC: 7 hits. 2 frames each with 1 frame between. 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
RE1: 9
RE2: 8
stun: 2 per hit, including the landing hit
lag: 11, 23
ADV: -8
total: 37
notes: during landing animation there is another attack for the first 2 landing frames.
2 small hits on the ground, one on each side of mario. two-frame duration.

-BA-
EX: 5
AC: 12
RE1: 11
RE2: 11
stun: 6
lag: 7, 15
ADV: -1
total: 28

-UA-
EX: 3
AC: 6
RE1: 24
RE2: 20
stun: 6
lag: 7, 15
ADV: -1
total: 29

***DOC***
-NA-
EX: 2
AC: 29
RE1: 14
RE2: 14
stun: ss-8, 6
lag: 9, 18
ADV: -1, -3
total: 45
sweetspot: last twelve AC frames. more damage/stun/knockback

-FA-
EX: 17
AC: 5
RE1: 52
RE2: 37
stun: 9
lag: 12, 25
ADV: -3
total: 59

-DA-
EX: 9
AC: 7 hits. 2 frames each with 1 frame between. 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
RE1: 9
RE2: 8
stun: 3 per hit
lag: 12, 24
ADV: -9
total: 37

-BA-
EX: 5
AC: 11
RE1: 12
RE2: 12
stun: 5
lag: 9, 18
ADV: -4
total: 28

-UA-
EX: 3
AC: 6
RE1: 24
RE2: 20
stun: 6
lag: 9, 18
ADV: -3
total: 29

[Thomas Tipman]

that data is madd helpful, and the site was awsome. i decided to make an animated gif. of the frames on that page to get a good look on the move differences. i'll post them so you all can see the hit boxes in motion.

ALL CREDIT TO GO TO USEA

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7990/dmhb3td.gif
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/83/dmhf8np.gif

[Muonic]

Doc>mario in every facet.

[Thomas Tipman]

doc>mario is not completely true, personally i like mario better. combos are easier and his A,A,A combo is more dependable.

[VilNess]

PAL Doc(>) PAL mario

Decend Doc>Decend mario

Great Doc=Great Mario

Mario requires a bit more understanding and mindgames to connect with his limited KO moves (against not-so-edgeguardable chars.)
but in NTSC these chars seem pretty even when in right hands.

I really wish they hadn´t nerfed mario :(
I would play him if they wouldn´t

[JJ]

I agree Vilness.

[Bob Money]

ha is not that much better than mario because marios recovery is awesome but WITH THE UP B WALL JUMP....
marios landing lag is noticably faster than doc

here is why i like doc alot better tho cuz he can finish combos alot better with fair and i love the hitbox on his fsmash his cape is not too floaty which is good after a sh cape and using cape on the edge to sweet spot. docs back air is better for combos and his sex kick. i think playin doc and mario is a matter of preference not who is better cuz Mario can flat out combo like crazy with fair and using fsmash to KO is an easier option for mario than doc.
Docs pills are way too good tho.
docs pills and f air and Marios recovery and speed
but alot of times docs poor recovery can be taken advantage of.
ESPECIALLY in diitos and doc vs mario cuz of back throw to cape etc. Marios AAA combo is great cuz alot of times after a jab with doc u never jab again because of lag and CC.
its awesome to have options for recovery with mario.
its great to have options for KO with Doc.
whatever u know
Doc taunt cancel owns>mario
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Big Burn]

i could get into all the reasons why i like mario more.... but i also think that in the end its all a matter of preference and they are almost equal...i just think i am better with mario than i am with doc...i cant live without the range of the fsmash that mario has and doc does not have....

[Mav]

I stick with that. Personal prefference. Though it doesn't matter for me since I can play both characters in tournament level. =) I seem to do alot better against Jiggs, Marth and Shiek with Doc then I do with Mario. But again it just might be my playing style. *shrugs* Which BTW, style should be considered a factor when solving this dilema. For example, Falco is easier to pick up than fox since it's easy to short hop, WD, SHL, ect. Who's easier to learn, ect... ect... Which I believe in this case in Mario.

[Knuckaclo]

why post this if there is another one just like it. a whole discussion in it to.

[Ragnarok503]

It's all about those pills, thats why I think that Doc is better than Mario.
They move in such a great way to create a wave to stun the enemy and set up for an attack. Less experienced players tend to get nervous when they see the barrage of pills and will do some stupid things. They also do great damage for a projectile.

I think Docs Fsmash is much better than Marios because Docs always does great damage and knockback no matter where you hit with it. If you learn the master using pills and wavedashing then getting in range to use his Fsmash isn't as hard as it may first seem.

I also think that Docs forward aerial is better than Marios because its another great KO move that Doc has and can be used well with the help of pills.

This is all just my opinoin, don't take me too seriously and get pissed at me Mario fans :p

[Knuckaclo]

the stun is the exact same its just the sound that makes it look different.

[meepxzero]

Originally posted by Maverick
I stick with that. Personal prefference. Though it doesn't matter for me since I can play both characters in tournament level. =) I seem to do alot better against Jiggs, Marth and Shiek with Doc then I do with Mario. But again it just might be my playing style. *shrugs* Which BTW, style should be considered a factor when solving this dilema. For example, Falco is easier to pick up than fox since it's easy to short hop, WD, SHL, ect. Who's easier to learn, ect... ect... Which I believe in this case in Mario.

Naw docs easier to play its all pill spamming and doing forward aerial and crouch cancel down smash. With mario u have to combo to win otherwise u mite as well play doc. Doc= power character Mario= combo character cuz of his uptilt/ up aerial juggles.

[maelstrom218]

*gets pissed off at ragnarok*:D

Just one note of disagreement on what you said: IMO, Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's f-smash in every practical sense, outside of the obvious damage/knockback issue.

Since SSBM is a 2D fighter, everthing revolves around spacing your character. The longer range you have, the better the character/attack will be. Look at Marth--what makes him so good (or irritating, as the case may be) is his disjointed hitbox. His sword neutralizes projectiles, outprioritizes attacks, and creates a virtual defensive barrier. Long range=good.

This being the case, Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's simply b/c you can stay a safer distance away while still using the attack. You can talk about the unreliabililty of Mario's f-smash b/c it has to be sweetspotted, but that extra range means a lot.

Doc's f-smash range is so terrible that most Doc's I've seen practically never use it unless the opponent screws up an air dodge/up-b. Despite its godly damage and knockback, you're not going to have that many opportunities to use it if you have to get w/in grabbing range just to get a KO, especially when his AFA/d-smash does better in terms of speed and range.

[meepxzero]

Originally posted by maelstrom218
*gets pissed off at ragnarok*:D

Just one note of disagreement on what you said: IMO, Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's f-smash in every practical sense, outside of the obvious damage/knockback issue.

Since SSBM is a 2D fighter, everthing revolves around spacing your character. The longer range you have, the better the character/attack will be. Look at Marth--what makes him so good (or irritating, as the case may be) is his disjointed hitbox. His sword neutralizes projectiles, outprioritizes attacks, and creates a virtual defensive barrier. Long range=good.

This being the case, Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's simply b/c you can stay a safer distance away while still using the attack. You can talk about the unreliabililty of Mario's f-smash b/c it has to be sweetspotted, but that extra range means a lot.

Doc's f-smash range is so terrible that most Doc's I've seen practically never use it unless the opponent screws up an air dodge/up-b. Despite its godly damage and knockback, you're not going to have that many opportunities to use it if you have to get w/in grabbing range just to get a KO, especially when his AFA/d-smash does better in terms of speed and range.

yah i agree with marios forward smash is way better than docs. Its like comparing marth to roys forward smash. docs forward smash mite be stronger than marios but he has that tipper smash that can send fox falco dying at pretty low percents if hit correctly.

[Knuckaclo]

dr mario can use his down b as a recovery better than mario. just hit down b and keep tapping b as fast as u can

[Happosai]

the down b move is only useful when you gain a slight horizontal distance, but after you performed a dwon b in air the lag is enormous so its not really usefull, only to scare your opponent

[Eljin]

I think it takes about the same mindgames for Doc to make an impact also. How could he get his kills, it would be the same way ppl use mindgames to get in Mario's combo's to kills. It's all in the way you use each char. I am sure that ppl may say some ppl's Doc's is better than someone else's Mario and vice-versa, but that would come down to what style preference and what move sets they happened to group together.

[Mav]

*agrees with maelstrom218*

Spacing and priority owns the world of Smash. And it's like I said above, style should be key when tackling this issue. Do you perfer power moves with knock-back, or combo happy moves that racks up damage?

It is true that Doc has more kill options, but Mario makes up lack of kill options with his much better recovery. Not saying that Mario has the best recovery in the game, but it's certainly better than Docs.

Yes Doc has better projectiles. But doc was probably given better projectiles cause he lacks combo ability and range. So pill spam helps "encourage" your opponent to get close enough so Doc can do his dirty work ^.^

But again, I still stick with personal prefference on this issue. I can play both characters at tournament level =D But if I had to choose just one.....

*points at my sig* ^^

[Eljin]

Understandable Maverick but to say that Doc lacks combo's is crazy, I understand the range but dag cut his legs off why dont ya. Sidestep does wonders for a Doc especially when fighting a Marth or Roy (wd in to sidestep then grab downthrow and f-smash)

Yeah the F-smash's range is bad you can still capitalize with it on alot of characters. I can't speak to much on the pills because ppl use them in different ways, but pill setups still remain (you could do like 2 or 3 and catch someone with a nice pill setup).

Overall it is a matter of preference which I am sure has been stated a very long time ago. Sure if someone new comes along and picks up Mario and feels comfortable with him then they'll stay with him and the same for Doc, so with that said aren't we tired of repeating the same points over and over again?

*runs quickly to get this thread closed* lol

[Charoo]

I seem to like Doc more. When I use Mario I can rack up damage easy but I feel that I can't kill them! With Doc I have to setup for combo but it's much easier to KO. So I pick Doc.

[Scav]

Originally posted by maelstrom218

Since SSBM is a 2D fighter, everthing revolves around spacing your character. The longer range you have, the better the character/attack will be. Look at Marth--what makes him so good (or irritating, as the case may be) is his disjointed hitbox. His sword neutralizes projectiles, outprioritizes attacks, and creates a virtual defensive barrier. Long range=good.



In that case, Roy is amazing and Game and Watch is top tier. GnW has a long, disjointed hitbox with his f-air... so why is he mid tier, at best? Because of "other factors," such as speed, weight, combo ability, and lead ins to his kill moves.

I can space very well with GnW, and yet it can hardly be said that I dominate with him.

[Lu']

Luigi<Doc<Mario