A whole bunch of Marth questions!! Fun for everyone!

[SiYkO]

Hi, first post.

I appreaciate any input. Thanks.

Questions:

-I really don't know what situations I should be Wavedashing.

Use wavedashing for moving along with your opponent, and keeping them in your sword reach, but out of their reach. This spacing is crucial to Marth.

- Is it better to jump immedately or forward+b immediately after being knocked horizontally?

Using forward-b once immediately is best, it seems to give more advantage than being used after your second jump.

-When should I be using the C-stick?
It can be good to use C-stick for all airs, which allows DI'ing more freely. C-sticking all smash attacks is also useful, except when they need to be charged.

-L-cancelling is rough!

Keep trying! Once learned, you will find yourself L-cancelling whenever possible without thinking about it.

-For some reason, after doing an upthrow, my first up tilt never comes out very fast.

[i]The recovery of the throw is weight dependent. Lighter characters will allow you to uptilt much earlier than with heavy characters. But do not mash!

-When I get my fair blocked, I get thrown 924320948% of the time at close range. Am i inputting something wrong, or is the grab guranteed at close range?

The grab is guranteed unless the fair comes out extremely late, and is L-canceled.

-Should I ever use his down+b?

down+b works well as a combo breaker sometimes, but DI'ing away and using an aerial attack will give you much more initiative with less risk if successful or failed. However, down+b will connect in some situations an aerial attack will not.

-I see players in videos who, from grabbing the edge, seem to jump and immediately wavedash, but I cannot get this done! Am I missing something?

You must be very quick to drop, jump, and and wavedash from the corner. Try drop, jump, and fair, nair, or uair. However, there is no easy solution, it is all mindgames.

-How effective is 'wiggling'? I read about it to recover faster, but have no clue if it is worth doing, or better to DI and plan after recovery?

Wiggling will get you out of spins. You cannot airdodge while spinning, so wiggle the stick to free this option. It only increases your options, so is worth implementing.

-Is it really worth l-canceling nair? It recovers so fast on its own...

Yes!

New:

-When the opponent's % is high, what is a good throw option? I seem to get crapped upon no matter which direction I throw. Sometimes when I throw up, they will go behind me, and I have trouble comboing off the bair, or turning around to get a fair in. Other throws do not seem to open any combo opportunity, and dont accomplish much.

-What are the uses of forward-b? I see it used sparingly in high level play, but don't see when are 'good opportunities' for it. What is also the best pattern? I use f, u u u because it seems to cover the most distance. What else can be good?

-How effective is trying to spike someone with dair? I try it, and sometimes it works, but dair takes sooo long to recover, I will often plummet to my death cursing furiously! Also, it sometimes sends them up! What's the deal?

Thank you very much for your answers

[Rune]

Use it for spacing, Marth is all about spacing.. he has to stay near the opponent so they won't start spamming projectiles at him yet he has to away from them because his close range game sucks and he'll get whipped around.

The solution is staying just outside the opponents close combat reach, since Marth has insane range on his close combat attacks he can still hit the opponent while outside their reach.

Wavedashing is the perfect tool for moving along with your opponent, they come toward you, you slide back, they move away from you, you slide forward.. there's not trick to it I'm afraid, you're just gonna have to get used to it.

As for the confusion factor along with dashdancing.. it's not so much the confusion that makes this a good tactic. You have to provoke your opponent to attack, and miss so you can punish them. You have to give them the feeling that you're inside their grasp then slip between their fingers when they fall for it.
How you get your opponent to do so is up to you and your opponent, dashdancing and wavedashing are just the best tools in this case.

[SiYkO]

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind.

Sorry for making a thread about just this question... I have many small questions though, is there an IRC channel or somethign where I can ask them? I tried the DC hub, but it seemed much more social chat and my questions didnt seem to get noticed. Thank you.

[Rune]

Uhm, change the name of the topic into "a bunch of questions" and keep asking?

[SiYkO]

k

[Rune]

Whew, lot's of Q's, lets try.. ^^"

- Is it better to jump immedately or forward+b immediately after being knocked horizontally? Other than saving your jump to fight edgeguarding, what is best for distance?
For distance I'm not too sure, but I think it doesn't matter.. I always go for forward-b first, then jump.

-When should I be using the C-stick? I only really use it when trying to do a fsmash in many situations... but I read about using it for fair while DI'ing backwards. Any other useful situations?
I personally use it for all my airs (save Nair), the DI is great help with spacing. It's not hard either, just takes some getting used too. I C-stick pretty much all smashes unless I need to charge one. No other real uses for C-stick as far as I know.

-L-cancelling is rough! Just had to say that it is very hard to implement, and I wish it was second nature already ;_;
Just keep trying, once it's in your fingers it's really easy.. I actually L-cancel in most games I play where a similar situation comes up, just can't stop it. ><"

-For some reason, after doing an upthrow, my first up tilt never comes out very fast. Am I doing something wrong? Or do I just have to practice timing it as soon as I recover? Is mashing it worth it?
Don't mash, just get the timing down.. remember that heavier chars give you more lag on your throw then light chars. You'll have to wait like a full second before you can move again after throwing bowser. :P

-When I get my fair blocked (against Shiek specifically) i get thrown 924320948% of the time at close range. I am trying to l-cancel it and dodge downward (dont know what thats called), but it doesnt seem to work. Am i inputting something wrong, or is the grab guranteed at close range?
It's guranteed unless you L-cancel it and start the fair at the last possible moment before hitting the ground yet early enough to still hit them.. kinda hard to explain :"
Also, I'd try rolling instead of dodging (it's called dodge or sidestep-dodge by most), doding takes long and Sheik could simply grab again.. rolling behind them gives you some nice distance, perfect for tippers and such.

-Should I ever use his down+b? I will mash it sometimes while getting comboed and hope for the best, but I never EVER see any high level players using it, which already answers this question. What is best instead, air dodge?
It's barely used at high level because it doesn't do ****.. most of the time you can simply counter by doing any other move like forward tilt or fair, and they do more damage plus set up better for combo's then the down-B counter.
To get out of combo's you should try DIing away, toward or up to screw with their aim or fly out of reach.. try some tapping the C-stick in their general direction, you might get an air attack in somewhere. ^^

-When I am grabbing the edge, I am trying to get up safely, and will often drop, airjump, and fair, but all the other options I attempt seem so slow. I see players in videos who seem to jump and immediately wavedash, but I cannot get this done! Am I missing something? Is there a way to 'speed up' myslef here (hopeful!)?
No, it's just timing.. ok, you have to jump as soon as possible after droping, that helps a bit.
Most of this crap is mindgames and gambles, try Nair and Uair as comeback moves aswell, they work for me once in a while.

-How effective is 'wiggling'? I read about it to recover faster, but have no clue if it is worth doing, or better to DI and plan after recovery?
Wiggling simply gets you out of spins. While in a spin you can't airdodge, so if you want to free the option of airdodging, wiggle the controle stick. I usually do this if I'm really high up, just to gain an extra option.. I'm not gonna be doing much else up there anyway.

-Is it really worth l-canceling nair? It recovers so fast on its own...
Yes, you're gonna need every extra bit of speed you can squeeze out of him if you wanna face the other top-tier chars (Fox and Sheik) and their blinding speed.

[MookieRah]

Is it better to jump immedately or forward+b immediately after being knocked horizontally? Other than saving your jump to fight edgeguarding, what is best for distance?

It's always best to use forward b first, because when you use it before your 2nd jump it kinda gives you a mini jump out of it where you actually gain a lil bit of height and cover a lil bit of horizontal distance. If you use it after the 2nd jump it just slows your fall a tad and gives a lil bit of horizontal movement.

Don't mash, just get the timing down.. remember that heavier chars give you more lag on your throw then light chars. You'll have to wait like a full second before you can move again after throwing bowser. :P

Wow, I had no idea the lag of the throw was determined by the weight of the char. Tis nice to know about that.

Counter------
Should I ever use his down+b? I will mash it sometimes while getting comboed and hope for the best, but I never EVER see any high level players using it, which already answers this question. What is best instead, air dodge?
It's barely used at high level because it doesn't do ****.. most of the time you can simply counter by doing any other move like forward tilt or fair, and they do more damage plus set up better for combo's then the down-B counter.

I dunno, for the most part Rune you are right, but there is one thing that counter is good for, totally messing up my combos/chains. It's odd because people at tournaments and stuff can't break my combos with attacks as much as my dormmate Ben Bullock. Neither can my friends in my crew, which are as experienced as I am with the game. My friend Ben will only use counter whenever he gets caught up in chains, and sometimes he manages to pull it out and it messes me up. I am pretty sure if he tried a fair or any other aerial that he would either be hit or it would clang, and in that instance counter is better.

I never remember to counter whenever I am getting the crap beat out of me by fair chains (dunno if it would come out in time or not either), but if Roy or Marth countered when a Marth opponent is fairing the crap out of yas, I am pretty sure it would stop it dead in it's tracks.

Wiggling simply gets you out of spins. While in a spin you can't airdodge, so if you want to free the option of airdodging, wiggle the controle stick. I usually do this if I'm really high up, just to gain an extra option.. I'm not gonna be doing much else up there anyway.

This is true, but since it's new to him I would reccomend to make a conscience effort to do this almost every time he gets knocked around. It's good to do it that way cause it establishes a habbit and it's easier to incorporate. I remember this taking a while for me to pick up, because I simply forgot about it all the time :-P.

[Rune]

Hmmm, I'm just not sure about counter.. I don't think anyone really is. Roy's counter obviously does have it's uses. ;P

And yes, throw lag is weight dependend, try doing Mewtwo's forward throw on Pichu and then try it on Bowser, that's how I found out. ^^
Floatyness might have something to do wit hit as well, I'm not sure.

As for the wiggle, I'm just telling him what it does..

[MookieRah]

Hmmm... I think that counter should be looked at more thoroughly then. If I can stop fair combos with my Roy that will take away one of Marth's biggest advantages. That and it will give me and excuse to scream "C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker!!!!!" after I use it XD.

To much delight that would bring me.

I will try to make a conscience effort to figure out if that works, but I don't have a Marth does crazy fairs to play with anywhere near me.

[Rune]

Well, can you do double fairs yourself? Finding someone who can mash down B as Roy shouldn't be that hard to find. ;)

[MookieRah]

You do indeed have a valid point :-P, and yeah, I can double fair with Marth but not much else.

[SiYkO]

Thank you very much Rune and MookieRah for your answers. I am editing the first post to contain answers, because I figure many people have similar questions. I will add more if I have any questions to, which I already do.

I am feeling a LOT of improvement in my Marth, I had been playing a good amount with buddies, and what seemed like out of the blue, suddenly i was just pressing L every time i hit the ground!!! I had been trying to do it for a while, but now I am surprised if I land and I haven't L-canceled something!! I'm sure this is nothing new, but I am very pleased. For me, it was much more finding a rhythm in aerial attacks than actually deciding when to press L.

Thanks again!

[Rune]

Yay, he found the Marth rythem! ^^

Now there's the part where consciously break the rythem at will to gain full controle. >:]

Playing Marth is like playing with water.. first you must learn how to flow, then you must learn how to controle the flow.
Then you can really get some tsunamis going and wash the world clean of all those ignorant top/higher char players.. *dreamy*

[MookieRah]

LOL, I think you like Marth perhaps a bit too much Rune :-P.

Also, about the counter thing. Although a grade A n00b without good timing was in control of the Roy during the experiment, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that if the fairs come in quick succession then you won't be able to counter because you get knocked into a spin. I dunno, but if you were insane at wiggling it might be possible to break it faster and counter. Even still, if you allow a half second gap or so then a counter would come out in time.

The counter is better at breaking ground combos due to CC. DED/SD gets owned by it, and so does a good many setups I have. I don't think you could break a speedy DED with any other move besides counter either, so that definitely helps.

I am gonna do more experiments with it, and play Ben more to learn how he uses it more. I am then gonna take what I have learned from him and try applying it in more advanced ways. Dunno if anything will come from it, but it's worth the effort to find out.

[Rune]

Nice Mookie, keep me updated please. ^^

PS: Think like Marth? I AM Marth! :P

-When the opponent's % is high, what is a good throw option? I seem to get crapped upon no matter which direction I throw. Sometimes when I throw up, they will go behind me, and I have trouble comboing off the bair, or turning around to get a fair in. Other throws do not seem to open any combo opportunity, and dont accomplish much.
This is a well known problem.. at high %, just don't grab I guess. If you do grab, throw up and wait for them to come down or throw to either side, follow them, then wait near where they hit the ground. Then predict if they're gonna tech/tech-roll/belly flop/etc and make sure you're right there in their face the second their invincability frames run out.

-What are the uses of forward-b? I see it used sparingly in high level play, but don't see when are 'good opportunities' for it. What is also the best pattern? I use f, u u u because it seems to cover the most distance. What else can be good?
Never do the 4th one, instead stop at 3. Try f, f, f. It's has the best knockback.
Other uses for it are when the opponent is at high %. Use it at a setup move then.. on fastfallers do f, f. They'll kinda fly over your head, ready to egt F-smased. On floaties, just he first hit should be enough for about the same effect.
this ain't a very important move in total. 'cept for comeback's.

-How effective is trying to spike someone with dair? I try it, and sometimes it works, but dair takes sooo long to recover, I will often plummet to my death cursing furiously! Also, it sometimes sends them up! What's the deal?
Hit with the tip, if you hit with the middle of the blade and up it will indeed send them up. Also, don't use it off the stage, rather stand on the edge and use it's range to spike people off the edge w/o jumping off the stage yourself.
Also, because of it's range you can hit people just below the edge, you need to time this to the frame though.

Another nice trick, hang on the edge when the opponent is coming back, edge-hop while doing your dair in their face. You'll dodge their up+B, spike them, and land safely on the edge of the stage yourself. ^^
Seems to work best on people like Ganondorf imho.

[SiYkO]

edge-hop

is this referring to just pressing jump? or falling off and then jumping? because if it's the latter, it seems like it'd be rather easy to kill myself with it.

[Rune]

falling off, then jumping.. takes a bit of practise yeah, but it's not that dif. You can do it with fairs and nairs right?

[SiYkO]

yeah, but i can only land on the edge like 75% of the time. I wouldn't wanna risk it with the dair... i guess I'll practice that!

Rune, do you have AIM? I have a couple videos of me playing that I had hoped to put up to get some pointers, but I have nowhere to host it for now. I would love to get some advice on my playing. Thanks!

Oh yeah one thing that happened in one of the matches: gannondorf was at like 12%, and had used his jump, and was trying to get on, he did up+b, i did tilt down+a. He repeated, I repeated. I kept poking him away for like 45 seconds, he tried different angles but was unable to get the ledge. Is there anything he coudl have done?

[Rune]

Not really, Ganondorfs comeback is very easy to edgeguard. He could have tried to sweetspot, but I'm not sure if that would have helped. Just tell him to not fall off while playing against Marth. :P

75% of the time ain't bad, but I can do it 100% of the time with my eyes closed, so you should do some practising with that. ^^"

I don't have AIM, sorry.. I'm from the Netherlands, and pretty much nobody in Europe uses AIM. I use MSN.. which you prolly don't use.. :"

[MookieRah]

Bleh, MSN is teh suckzorz. Regardless of where you are from Rune you should get AIM :-P.

And btw, if you dudes think a dair from the ledge is risky, try doing a reverse flare blade and using blazer to recover with Roy. Talk about risky edgeguarding :-P, that thing is pretty freaking hard to pull off.

[stuntcuum3571]

I hope I'm not stealing your thunder or imposing Siyko, but Rune, could you give me some insight on The Dancing Sword(such as which cmbo is fasresr, most knock back, best against floaties, fast fallers)I understand it isnt a staple of Marth's game, but I can never know too much

[aho43]

I use the sword dance a lot as Marth. Neways. I usually just go with Forward, Forward, Forward for damage purposes. For juggling purposes I like to do F, F, U, U. The two upswings will send people straight up and if they are shielding, it sometimes pokes through the shield hitting them on the head. If you are trying to land the spike from the sword dance, I find that that F, U, D works best.

[SiYkO]

Okay.... this part of my game is really annoying me now.....

Whenever I run, i have crappy offensive options... basically his running slash which never works, or fair/nair/something. So instead, I'll walk around everywhere, which makes it really hard to zone against Shiek, and also difficult to punish mistakes.

Every kind of solution seems to point towards wavedashing. I've been practicing but still can't get it consistently. Any tips? It seems most of my missed wavedashes I jump a full jump... does wavedash require shorthop (or at least different timing if its not a shorthop)?

Really... I'm pretty pissed at Marth right now. walking around all stupid-looking in his party suit... that or Marth Vader omg clever i must be first one to say that -_-----

just a vent here, move along

[Rune]

Okay, well.. the dancing blade has a few problems that imo makes it a bit useless in some cases.

Let's go over the options for combo's..

Uhm, first.. fastfallers.
At low % none of the combinations have much effect. They simply fall back to the ground too fast and can thus easily punish it by shieldgrabbing, which is really easy to do.. so, forget about trying this on FFers on low % at all.

100% up till about 150% is a diferent game though.. try the first and second hit (neutral or down) and you'll see they won't hit the ground in between these two attacks. The only thing they can do is DI away or over your head, neither will get them anywhere though..
If they go behind you, stop DDing and Fsmash them, if they go away from you the third attack in the DD will usually hit them (the neutral/forward one). It has good knockback, similar to that of the forward tilt, and will likely kill them at this %. Another option is to once again stop the DD and Fsmash them..
If they seem too far away for either of these options I'd advice a quick sprint forward into shffled Nair or a down tilt. If even that won't reach them, wait for them to fall and tech, then quickly run after them and get them right when they get up. Timing for this type of stuff comes down to the frame, so be sharp about it. ^^

Now, floaties..
At low % it's simple.. if your opponent is good at DI, forget it. If you're close to them they can DI behind you on the second, if not the first hit. If you're attacking from a distance they can DI out of reach on the second if not the first hit.. really, it's pretty much no use against a DIing floaty.
If they can't DI well, go for up, up, up.. delay the last attack a bit so they fall within reach, nice juggle chain. Last attack sends them up setting up for more Uair, Fair and uptilt juggling.. quite nasty. ^^

At high % (usually 70% to 120% or something) the up, up, up juggle obviously won't work since they'll go way to high, now try to do only the first and maybe second hit, then screw the rest of the chain and go for a Fsmash or an arial attack to your liking if they go too high. I usually end up doing only the first attack (red one), then Fsmashing.. which obviously workes. Free Fsmashes are always good stuff. ^^

-----------

Ok, here's how to actually implement it..
Walking up to your opponent and start chopping away usually won't work on higher levels of play (duh), the opponent will simply roll away or shield.. if they roll and you keep DDing they'll simply kick you in the butt and if they shield they'll shieldgrab you with ease. Therefor, if you see them roll behind you, stop and react acordingly to their moves. If they shield and you're attacking from a distance you can usually try the second attack as well, after that, if they're still shielding, stop once again. At close range stop after the first attack, doing a second and/or third will get you shieldgrabbed for sure. :"

The "key" is to surpise people with this. If they see it coming they'll get out of it almost every time.. luckily the first strike of the DD is very fast and being a B attack has some weird advantages.
These advantages are as follows.. it cancels dashes, which means you can do this out of a dash at any moment you want.. it's like a build in pivot (look up what pivoting means if you don't know.. not that it's very relevant ^^").

How I make use of this is by dashing away from the opponent after an L-canceled arial and forward B them when I reach max distance (tipper distance.. forward B doesn't have range like the Fsmash, so the tipper distance is closer by in this case).
Not many people expect you to attack while dashing away from them, so this gets them quite a lot. ^^
Once the first hit is made follow up with your next move (Fsmash, second DD attack..), works nicely.

The other way I get this crap to work is by suddenly using the first hit instead of the fair they're expecting. DD, unlike arial A attacks won't get canceled when you hit the floor.. so if you're doing shffled fairs you can just mix in a forward B, while hitting the ground and continue doing the little combo's I just gave you. ^^

This is what I do.. might take some practise, but I'm sure it works since I use it myself on very sharp competition.

------

Bunch of extra stuff..

Best horizontal knockback: forward, forward, forward..
Best vertical knockback: up, up, up..

Both final blows for both are pretty hard to hit since the third blow already has good knockback.

All seem about equal in speed 'cept for third hit down.. not sure about this though. Spiking with the third hit is very hard to time and very easy to predict.. I usually get it to work while airborne when I do. Just jump into a recovering opponent and forward, down them.
Hard to pull off, dangerous, better alternatives.. you can practise it in some friendlies or whatever, I personally never believed it was worth it, so I only use it for fun once in a while.

About forth attack down.. it's fun, people never seem to expect it and it can push people who shield it off edges making the last attacks hit and knocking them slightly away.

About doing the whole string and trying to hit with only the forth attack 'cuz it's so uber l33t and strong and what not.. don't, my grandma can see this coming a mile away, total bull, they'll just roll behind you and punish your *** badly. -_-"

This should do for now.. any questions?
I'd be happy to answer whatever you wanna know. ^^

[MookieRah]

Thiese are a few things I use with Roy for DED, and when I goof off with Marth I use it for his sword dance too. They are actually really simple.

The first on is this. Dash towards your foe then when you get into range dash back, but immediately dash forward and start your Sword's Dance. Note: this has to be dash danced otherwise you will suffer from Marth's horrendously crappy turn around speed. Good examples of this technique can be found in Masashi's vids.

You can also use SD to stunt other peoples aerial game (if you are on the ground). Just simply learn the vertical range and the arch of it and you are set to mess up their attack.

[Rune]

Whenever I run, i have crappy offensive options... basically his running slash which never works, or fair/nair/something. So instead, I'll walk around everywhere, which makes it really hard to zone against Shiek, and also difficult to punish mistakes.

Every kind of solution seems to point towards wavedashing. I've been practicing but still can't get it consistently. Any tips? It seems most of my missed wavedashes I jump a full jump... does wavedash require shorthop (or at least different timing if its not a shorthop)?

Wavedashing is the best option, out of a wavedash you can do anything, which is always great.
For now you can try down tilts.. a dash can be canceld by ducking as you might have noticed, after that you can also use any attack you want.. the only problem is it's slow. To kinda make up for this use down tilt since it doesn't require you to get back up after ducking.. it's a little faster.

Do this well before reaching the opponent though, otherwise you'll end up past the tipper distance.

Bleh, MSN is teh suckzorz. Regardless of where you are from Rune you should get AIM :-P.

And btw, if you dudes think a dair from the ledge is risky, try doing a reverse flare blade and using blazer to recover with Roy. Talk about risky edgeguarding :-P, that thing is pretty freaking hard to pull off.
I know MSN sucks.. I'll look into it.
I never said I thought it was risky, I do it all the time, never **** it up anymore..
Reverse flare blading? Sounds like fun.. I'll try it with Marth. :]

The first on is this. Dash towards your foe then when you get into range dash back, but immediately dash forward and start your Sword's Dance. Note: this has to be dash danced otherwise you will suffer from Marth's horrendously crappy turn around speed. Good examples of this technique can be found in Masashi's vids.
Cool, that's what I just said. ^^
Well if that doesn't prove it workes, lol. ;)

[MookieRah]

Apparently we posted at roughly the same time just a second ago :-P.

I never said I thought it was risky, I do it all the time, never **** it up anymore..

Heh, I wasn't referring to you, I was reffering to the other people who said that the ledge >> dair trick was risky :-P.


Reverse flare blading? Sounds like fun.. I'll try it with Marth. :]

It's really EASY to do with Marth, and I think his bair would be better if tipped. It's only hard when you have a character that drops like a rock *cough*Roy*cough* :-P. It's really tough. I haven't bothered practicing it in a while so I would just die if I tried it. Even when I did practice it I could only do it about 85% of the time without killing myself, and I was never able to incorporate it into my game. It's rough >_<.

Oh yeah, one last thing. I was playing one of my friends today in smash and was testing out the counter deal. I pulled it off a few times when he was comboing the **** out of me when I would have otherwise not been able to get out easily. So in essence the Counter can act like a combo breaker, although Roy's counter is more of a combo destroyer cause I actually KO'ed with it 2 of the 4-5 times I implemented it. It is a bit hard to get used to doing it, but so far it is working nicely.

Btw, what is your MSN addy? I don't like MSN, but I still use it. If you want you can contact me on MSN through strife_cyrus@hotmail.com

[En.Ee.Oh]

*KILLS MOOKIE FOR POSTING IN DETAIL WHAT HE TOLD HIM NOT TO POST AT ALLHJSFDGJHJAGFHJAGFHJDSGFASFASHJFDSAHJFSAGHJFDSAH J*

[stuntcuum3571]

Thank you both, Rune, Mookie Rah, for your replies and the helpfil information, and I have another question. What is the best way to deal with a CCing, turtling Roy. The Roy is ok,but mostly because he is so defensive, constant use of down tilts and Nair, dances minimal, but he makes em count.any advice?

[MookieRah]

A defensive Roy? Is there such a thing :-P.

Now I don't like giving advice on how to beat Roy's with Marth, but I am gonna do this just so that Roy player will improve!

Hmmm, I wish I didn't have my painting finals crap taking up the spot my TV and cube used to be, cause if I didn't I would try to find simple effective combos that Marth can use over Roy.

Here are a few things:

Be a CC ***** yourself. CCing hurts Marth, but it's not as bad as it is for Roy. It stops pretty much everything but grabs and forward smash.

If he catches you in DED and you are CCing just use counter and that will stop him in his tracks.

Use your range and tipping priority against him. If he is going defensive then it wouldn't be hard to keep him at your maximum range.

Learn how to do all that crazy fair crap. If you can catch him in an endless series of fairs and end it with dair or Dolphin Slash that Roy will be dead.

That is all I can think of, and I am sure Rune will be a lot more informative on this.

[Rune]

I added you on MSN Mook, just for fun I guess ^^

Hmmm, beating a Roy like that is very simple.. spacing. He can't move and CC at the same time, at least, not very fast.. he's like a sitting duck waiting to get tippered around.

Fair crap will only work at higher %.. otherwise you won't get him off the ground due to his CCing.

[Imno]

Doesn't Marth's SD work better at close to mid range than at full lengths? What can attacks can be linked after striking with a single foward b on the ground.

[MookieRah]

Well, this is coming from a Roy standpoint, but for the most part you can't truely combo a move after the first forward b, but there are moves that you can hit your opponent with quite often. With Roy I will usually go for a downtilt or a downsmash after the first hit of forward B. I am sure that it would work for Marth as well, but probably not as effectice because Roy's dtilt sets up for combos while Marth's would knock them away and do some % damage. I rarely use downsmash after forward B, but I do occasionally. Just make sure that you perform your forward B at max range so you get a tipper (this holds true for Roy as well, because a tippered downsmash sends them flying back as opposed to getting knocked into the air).

[stuntcuum3571]

Hey Mookie,have you written a Roy guide,cuz I'd love to read it. I also thought you had a "Mookie teaches Roy" thread as well,but can't I find that

[Rune]

Mook, sorry, but at high % Marth can get forward smashes on opponents hit with the first forward B.

[Orca782]

Disclaimer: I'm not a spectacular Marth player. I'm simply stating my advice from experience.

Disclaimer 2: I didn't read all the threads in this topic.

Originally posted by SiYkO
Questions:

-I really don't know what situations I should be Wavedashing.

Personally, I use it if I'm charging after someone I've knocked away, and I realize it's faster to WD than to run, so I'll go from a run into a WD. That's abou it. Rarely I'll do dash dance tricks, like run forward, WD back, run forward, WD back,.....
And of course I enjoy screwing with it while my opponent dies/reenters the battle.

- Is it better to jump immedately or forward+b immediately after being knocked horizontally?

Jump. Depending on how you were knocked, you will want to cancel out the horizontal momentum. A jump will do this instantly. A forward B will sometimes only slow you, and even worse, it often results in the forward B getting nerfed temporarily so you go nowhere when doing it. This makes it almost impossible to return large horizontal distances. So jump, cancel the horizontal movement, and then use the horizontal aid of the forward B to get back.

-When should I be using the C-stick?

I only use it for WD'ing into a smash. Well, I use it for any smash, but I generally smash out of WD.

-L-cancelling is rough!

I think so too. I'm working on it though, it's critical to his game.

-For some reason, after doing an upthrow, my first up tilt never comes out very fast.

No advice.

-When I get my fair blocked, I get thrown 924320948% of the time at close range. Am i inputting something wrong, or is the grab guranteed at close range?

Them's the breaks.

-Should I ever use his down+b?

Very sparingly, and only as a preference. I think there's always something better you could do, but as long as you don't get predictable, go for it.

-I see players in videos who, from grabbing the edge, seem to jump and immediately wavedash, but I cannot get this done! Am I missing something?

You press back, to drop off the ledge, jump, and do a air to ground WD. If the person is edgeguarding though they can still hit you, so I'm not sure I see this being all that effective. I'd stick with the edge to fair.

-How effective is 'wiggling'? I read about it to recover faster, but have no clue if it is worth doing, or better to DI and plan after recovery?

Never heard of it. Of course I wiggle to get out of shield break, yoshi's egg, etc, but I didn't know it worked in this instance. I'll try that sometime.

-Is it really worth l-canceling nair? It recovers so fast on its own...

Saying what I've been told; lcancel everything.

New:

-When the opponent's % is high, what is a good throw option? I seem to get crapped upon no matter which direction I throw. Sometimes when I throw up, they will go behind me, and I have trouble comboing off the bair, or turning around to get a fair in. Other throws do not seem to open any combo opportunity, and dont accomplish much.

Marth's uthrow sucks at high percentage, because they'll go too high for you to follow up, and can easily come back at you. Stick with forward or back, and go after them.

-What are the uses of forward-b? I see it used sparingly in high level play, but don't see when are 'good opportunities' for it. What is also the best pattern? I use f, u u u because it seems to cover the most distance. What else can be good?

Ken use(d) it a lot from what I saw of his vids. It's apparently an unbreakable combo, so as long as they're there, go for it. Be warned that oftentimes only the first 3 hits hit. But at high damage the 3rd, and always the 4th will send them flying.

-How effective is trying to spike someone with dair? I try it, and sometimes it works, but dair takes sooo long to recover, I will often plummet to my death cursing furiously! Also, it sometimes sends them up! What's the deal?

I've seen a ton of ken vids, and never seen him do a dair spike. Anyway, aside from the fsmash I'd rank this as Marth's 2nd best kill move. Get them off the edge and go for it. Even off a short hop you should have plenty of time to get back up. Just make sure you hit them. And remember, as it's circular, you can use it even while still on the level and sometimes it will send them off the edge.

Thank you very much for your answers [/B]

[MookieRah]

Hey Mookie,have you written a Roy guide,cuz I'd love to read it. I also thought you had a "Mookie teaches Roy" thread as well,but can't I find that

I have written a Roy guide, and actually I have discovered a few things that I need to update on it, so I will possibly update it soon.

Here is a link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43608

Mook, sorry, but at high % Marth can get forward smashes on opponents hit with the first forward B.

Tis ok, cause they know what to do if they were playing Roy if nothing else :-P.

[stuntcuum3571]

Much thanks Mookie, and one lil question. When recovering from a "survivable" lateral kill move,when hit, should DI towards the stage, up and towards the stage, or does it just not matter(this would be as Roy,not Marth)

[Rune]

Orca: I only agree with your statements half the time, and you shouldn't base all your answers on just a bunch of Ken vids. Please don't give advice about subjects you do not fully understand yourself or when you do, at least state you're not sure about these subjects yourself.

You are obviously misinformed about some stuff..

Jump. Depending on how you were knocked, you will want to cancel out the horizontal momentum. A jump will do this instantly. A forward B will sometimes only slow you, and even worse, it often results in the forward B getting nerfed temporarily so you go nowhere when doing it. This makes it almost impossible to return large horizontal distances. So jump, cancel the horizontal movement, and then use the horizontal aid of the forward B to get back.

The same goes for jumps, it's a simple matter of waiting a sec till the momentum wears off fully and you start floating back. After this use forward B (or multiples) then jump.

You also gain the advantage of being able to Fair during your second jump w/o penalty since the attack will be finnished before the jump reaches it's highest point, making edgeguards like shines a tad easier to manage.
(Most shine spikes happen during the second jump, lot harder to shine a fairing Marth..).

You said you'd seen a lot of Ken vids right? Must have been really old ones, since this is pretty much how Ken does it.

[stuntcuum3571]

Rune, at higher percentages(100+) should I up throw and try to juggle, or forward throw and pursue. I usually play against Roy, Marth, Mario and Peachy