Samus Counters

[infinity]

I've used the search option for this, but it didn't help very much so I'll ask here.

Which characters counter samus? Which characters does samus counter?

IMO, she has very few of both, but I might be wrong. Any on topic thoughts on counters are welcomed and appreciated.

[SabreAnt]

In my experience, Samus has the most trouble vs characters like Fox, Sheik, Marth and Falcon that are of equal or greater skill than yourself. These characters put up great fights.

As regards Samus' advantages, I'd say that she has clear advantages over DK, Jigglypuff, Young Link and possibly Ness. Depends what your opponent's skill level is really. At even levels, these fights are in you favour.

IMO, Samus is one of a couple characters that doesnt have glaringly obivous Counter or reverse Counter characters. The differences are closer.

[infinity]

Thanks for responding SabreAnt.

I just wanted to say I've heard arguements about Jigglypuff being a counter to samus and vice versa. I just never knew which one was true.

[CaliburChamp]

Link Counters Samus, thanks to his shield. Link's arrows disrupt her recovery with the bombs.

Samus counters Peach.
Samus counters Bowser.
Samus counters Mewtwo.
Samus counters G&W.

[Supernova]

i hardly think a shield qualifies link as being a counter. the arrow-bomb thing is useful, but not tide-turning. bombs are mainly used for recovery (plus baiting, but i'm not gonna delve into that,) and if samus is high, link must use his 'rang to detonate bombs. and samus may use that to her advantage and come in higher, and thus, safer. heck, even if she's low, link's gotta be precise with his projectiles. plus samus can DI back and forth and/or lay a "decoy" bomb so she's not so predictable in her recovery. i think it's even.

samus hates falcon, mainly for his knee and lightning fast speed. zelda is a problem too because of her kick. you can't CC those "shocking" attacks. luigi can be a pain because of his aerials.

sheik's a problem too, but samus can pose nearly as much a threat to her as well with her cc game. you just always gotta be ready to take a needle or two when recovering.

i don't find fox/falco too much a problem. i'd say it's even. i'd like to say it's even in samus's favor ever-so-slightly.

[Aftermath]

i'd say that samus does not counter that many people, but does well against a wide range of characters. I'd say some that she does counter are ganon, fox (slightly), yoshi, and DK.

She is countered by Doc, cf, marth, sheik, and link. All those fights are winnable (except possibly falcon), but you have to play on your toes and think about what you are doing, so you don't make a costly mistake.

Those are the ones that kinda pop into my head, but she does well against most of the lower tiers and ok against higher tiers.

[Smashbros]

Can you please explain to me how Falcon is a samus counter ?

[Mabus]

I'd say Marth can be a big problem (Then again, who isn't Marth a problem for... not like Marth is CHEAP AS **** or anything). Nothing gives me more trouble. Slices right through projectiles like they're nothing. Pretty much a Marth just running up to Samus (or pretty much anybody) and taping A is trouble.

[zitanix]

In my experience, Samus doesn't really counter Yoshi, since he can duck under smash missiles and has the advantage on the ground. it's about even in the air, and Samus doesn't really have anything extra to punish Yoshi with.

[Jasona]

if you learn to lower the altitude of a smash missle through missle canceling, then characters who rely on ducking the normal smash missle are screwed. If you're really good, meaning you can missle cancel just below the level floor, and your opponent mistakes it for a missle that never comes off but still sounds like it ( what is that called? ), then you can nail them with a seemingly invisible missle ( on flat levels).

[zitanix]

True, but that seems like it's too much work for not enough payoff. I'd probably just go ahead with another character if I'm having trouble with someone like that.

[infinity]

Some people say samus is like an advanced version of mewtwo, in that they are similar because samus does what mewtwo does, only much better. Do you think this is true? And if so, would that make samus a mewtwo counter?

[charade]

Yeah probably I can use them both fairly well

[Aftermath]

nooooo... samus is nothing like mewtwo, except that they both have something the can charge. samus doesn't djc where mewtwo does, samus is the 3rd heavest character, mewtwo is one of the lightest, samus has good smashes that hit all around, mewtwo's smashes are nothing special, samus has a sex kick, i wouldn't say mewtwo neutral air is anything close to a sex kick, samus' meteor is much different than mewtwo's, as are all of his moves. i see no way that they are similar, their double jump is different, mewtwo basically relies on grabs, uses tilts to combo, and kills off the top or with throws. if anything, Ness is more similar and a better version.

And about doing the same things, i don't see this either, the srategies for both differ largely, samus has spammable projectiles and good range and priority in the air, while mewtwo doesn't have as much range or the level of priority. Samus is probably a good choice against mewtwo, not because she's the same and therefore will counter mewtwo, but because she is different and much better in every way. Face it, mewtwo is countered by nearly everyone in the game.


Back a bit, if you don't think falcon does counter cf, then go out and play some better falcons. go to DC++ and dl a video of wes fighting Isai, they play at every major tournament and wes never wins, why? because falcon counters samus better than any other character in the game. the knees are so easy to score and chain on samus, not to mention he can combo her well and it is pretty hard to hit someone while you are being combo'd and knee'd all over the place. I used to think that maybe i could do better against falcon because i was able to beat my friend's falcon who i thought was pretty good, but then i went up to skypal, played Jon and a couple others who randomly played falcon against me and realized, No, falcon definitely counters samus, no question whatsoever.

Hmmm.... long post..

[Smashbros]

No offence to wes or anything, but Isai is a much better player. Isai could probably beat Wes when it comes to a Samus ditto, and yeh i've seen those vids.

So what Falcon has on Samus is his knee and his speed ? Ok thats fair enough i accept that the knee can waste samus better than against most other charcaters, but consider the fact that Falcons knee can be just as devastating aginst a Peach. Samus and Peach have similar properties like their floatiness and speed, but does this make Falcon a counter to peach ? no, it certainly does not. Peach is actually probably Falcons worst matchup.

Then you have to look at Falcons weaknesses. Falcon struggles against projectile characters they seriously interupt his game, he finds it very difficult to appraoch the opponent. peach's turnips are a nightmare for him to get past, nevermind samus' missiles,mines and charge shots. Another of Falcons main weaknesses is his ability to recover, it's incredibly predicatable and with all the options a good samus has to Edgeguard him like u-tilt his down aerial meteor spike, missiles, charge shorts and sex kick Falcon has a very difficult time getting back safely. Technically speaking i just dont see how a Falcon really has the upper hand against a good Samus, If anything i'd say they could both damage eachother quite heavily.

Just something to take into consideration, i'm neither an experienced Samus or Falcon player, i play Peach mainly but from what i've seen of the matchup or from what i can see technically it doesn't seem quite as bad as people make it sound to be.

[Supernova]

1. dittos mean nothing. only a group of common, skilled opponents could decide who was better than the other, and even then, it'll be debatable, unless there's a large gap in skill.
2. that's practically all falcon needs. i don't know if you noticed, but samus isn't exactly fast on the draw, except her fsmash.
3. peach has excellent edgeguarding options to dispose of falcon. and don't neglect your dsmash, which can brutalize everyone. but once again, she's in the same boat as samus. she just isn't quick at all, and unless you play good mind games, you'll be fighting an uphill battle.
4. if you know nearly nothing of samus and falcon, why are you making arguments about them?

i neglect to see how doc and mario, samus has a disadvantage with doc, but not mario. their differences shouldn't change the matchup that much.

and link still has to get close to finish samus. bombs, boomerangs, and arrows don't kill.

[Smashbros]

Supernova.... i made it quite clear i wasn't argueing anything. Just stating some facts.

1. You gonna argue that Wes is as good as Isai ?...... I dont think so. The point i made about the ditto is that isai could probably beat wes with about 5 charcaters.

2.The knee is all falcon needs ? I conceded that the knee did a lot of damage to Samus, but that Samus could do the same kind of thing right back at Falcon.

4. I dont know nearly nothing. I use to play as Falcon and one of my crew "grayfox" plays samus so i know enough about each of them to make some kind of judgement. All i'm doing is questioning the possibility that Falcon isn't quite as bad as you guys are making out.

[Crash]

it depends on yoru playing style with samus, whether or not cf counters samus. i spoke to my friend about captain falcon and he says he loves to fight falcon, mostly because hes so **** easy to edgeguard. but if you play i heavily missle based samus, you're going to get rocked by CF, he moves fast enough that you won't get enough free time to get any useful missles off. if you play an air to air samus, like using sex kick and f air a lot that can give falcon a lot of problems. grab happy samus probably doesnt' work, since if hes within grab range hes most likely about to shffl something. and you definately have to wd a lot, its fun almost being able to match falcon for speed.

[Aftermath]

you say the knee can do just as much to other charactres as it can samus??

1) no other character can be knee'd 3 times in a row

2) if you dsmash as samus, and it hits falcon's shield --> knee'd or dair to knee. this takes away her fastest and one of her best ground moves for getting cf off the edge.

3) edgeguarding falcon does not throw the match in samus' favor, if that were true fox, falcon, and falco would be so much lower on the general tiers. true you can kill cf at 60% to edgeguard or less, but, oh, what's that one move he has that's easier to land on samus than basically anyother character, oh yeah, THE KNEE. if you DI the wrong way and go with it, guess what, you're dead around 70% on FD, otherwise you die around 100% or less.

4) falcon's speed can overwhelm samus, even though she has all her projectiles andseemingly good air priority, falcon is just too much. His bair goes through samus' sex kick, missiles, fair, bombs, and cancels many of her other aerials, the same goes for the rest of his aerials, except the knee, when timed right, there's nhothing samus can do, i got sweetspotted out of my sex kick, and he was nowhere near me, it was like marth's reach added to his knee, it's ridiculous.

5) Not to mention falcon can combo samus just as well as or better than samus can, and much of the time more damage is given to samus.

If you love to go up against someone who limits every one of your strengths and takes them himself, then sure go fight a falcon. But play a good falcon before saying he's not a counter.

[Smashbros]

Yeh ok you've made your point. But you seem to have been making the assumption that i didn't believe that Falcon could counter Samus which isn't true. I was wondering as to how Falcon could counter Samus and making arguements as to why "technically speaking" it wasn't quite the rape you guys were making out. I've played good Falcons and i've played good Samus players i have experience so stop making the arrogant assumption that i dont.

[Aftermath]

No.

[JesusFreak]

1) no other character can be knee'd 3 times in a row

I've gotten a triple knee on Marth before. And I'm sure it's possible on some other characters. This matchup really isn't as bad as people make it out to be if you can space properly, and use the extreme amount of mindgames samus has using her bombs wavedash and missles.

[CaliburChamp]

If I was Samus and fighting Falcon, I use sex kick to counter Falcons knee since it has a bigger hit box than Falcons knee. And I would shoot quite a few uncharged shots to slow and stun Falcon, and that can be used for edgeguarding him. Mute City is a great stage to play Falcon on. He has horrible recovery punished very badly. Just Beam beam beam beam, then when they try to land f-smash. Or missle spam so they cant make it to the edge. Mute City is a Samus stage big time, unless she is fighting Jigglypuff.

[zitanix]

Nobody puts a knee up and hopes to hit you with the end of the move, so good luck using that sex kick. Uncharged shots are sometimes okay, but they still take too long to recover from. A Falcon running at you doesn't really lose much if tapped by an uncharged shot.

Mute city is just as bad for Samus as it is for Falcon. if you come from the side, you get knee, and if you come from below, you stand a good chance of getting punished as well.

[grayfox]

i disagree. if playing a falcon take him to mute. samus has far more options with recovery than falcon and there is so much room to work with. the only down side is the beam is useless in this stage for recovery(unless you feel like doing a daft beam cancel but it can be used to mix it up i suppose). falcon can edge guard samus with the knee and uairs but by no means is it impossible for her to get back to the stage safely. falcon does have it worse on that level than samus.

[Smashbros]

Capn crunch quite full of ourself ehh. how dare i question you... LMAO

[JesusFreak]

Calibur, you're right about Mute, but TOTALLY wrong about the sex kick. Maybe if you time it right then it will trade blows, but that's not a very good trade. :p And as greyfox said, no semi-competent Falcon player will try to hit with the end of the knee. Also, repeated uncharged shots is a bad idea. Maybe one here and there as a surprise stunner, but the stun isn't long enogh to make this a spammable move.

[Smashbros]

Anyway, to quote the book of malva00

"malva00
Smash Journeyman


Samus gives Falcon a lot of trouble. The Samus needs to be a wavedash master though.

Fox and Sheik are better choices against Samus.

Edit: I don't think Falcon is a Samus counter."

Go to the Falcon section under the counters topic if you like.

[UndrDog]

to be completely honest i dont think you can rate who counters Samus or who she can counter. unlike other characters Samus can be played so many different ways very effectivly. A good Samus can out power most other characters; out reach most other characters; out prioritize most other characters. characters like Luigi, Ice Climbers, Bowser, DK, Gannondorf, ect... that either focus on ground base manuvability or just lack the jumping power to get off the ground can be held off, while others who can get in close by air are often out prioritized by either Samus down smash, or down A. or just out reached by her tilt or Down Smash. Air attacks can be easily out prioritized by her airborn up tilt. followed up by a missle. the only characters I can think that might have the advantage in this case would be Yoshi, Capt. Falcon, and Sheik. Yoshi can jump cancel through her long reaching moves or just out reach; Capt. Falcon can pwn Samus if he manages to get inside; and sheik can pwn almost anybody if she can get inside her opponents attack.
This is, however, just one of the many ways to fight as Samus. If you want to play a retreating Samus, (much like you would a retreating Link) then you have the advantage against Capt. Falcon due to his laggy moves. the same said about fighting Sheiks. Yoshi can still get in there, but in the end I think Samus has the better stats and could beat out most Yoshis in a straight out fight. Tue this does make weak to other Samuses and Links along with others that are hard to retreat from.
Foxes and Falcos tend to have issues when dashing at Samuses. One bomb drop and the space animals' attack is put to a halt.
Is Samus the best character? probably not, but I think that if you can just alter your fighting style you can give yourself the advantage against any other character. Just my opinion.

[grayfox]

underdog you have a good point. changing your style with samus is just as much change as using a different character because there is so much to her. yet with this falcon can still rip samus even if she runs away and camps or whatever. his speed is too much for samus to handle imo same with sheik.

[UndrDog]

your right, but it does make it alot more even then most would think. this is why i think Samus will be sneaking up higher in the tiers in due time.