Marth Vs Ganondorf

[Links_Revenge]

I would like to know if there is any particular stratagy to taking out ganondorf with Marth? Also any other general help using Marth would help.

[Rune]

Hmmm, Ganon is one of Marth's tougher matchups. This is because Ganon can outrange Marth in the air with both Uair and Fair.
Therefor you shouldn't try to outrange Ganon with frontal Fair attacks like you would against pretty much any other opponent.. instead I'd advise to use Nairs. Ganondorf is tall which is perfect for this move, it's like mowing the lawn. ;]
'cept you can't Nair chain grass.. ^_^"

Your main power over Ganondorf is speed btw, outspeed his *** with your tilts and try not to grab too much, there arn't any really devastating throw combo's that work on him anyway.

[Links_Revenge]

thanks dude. are there any particular ways of taking out mewtwo or samus with marth.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune


...and try not to grab too much, there arn't any really devastating throw combo's that work on him anyway.

you still haven´t tried pivoting???
not foolproof off course, but connecting with the fsmash results usually in edgeguarding, and recovering Ganon= dead Ganon
In the heat of the battle it is possible that the DI on a bad place for them where a Fsmash can result to nice KO´s

I´ve qot a question myself: since ganons air mobility isn´t very good, isn´t he a bit vulnerable to juggling?

[Lxl]

Yes, at low altitude juggles. When he's high, despite his limited mobility, he does have some aerials to back him up. Fastfalled nair is one when his opponent is coming from the bottom-side, dair is a bit risky but will work if his opponent's timing is bad, fair in some occasions, and Wizard's Foot... It's so cool to see a fairing Marth eat it in the face. =)

[charade]

samus and mewtwo lol if i didn't know any better I'd say your trying to beat me.

you better include Marth because im using him too

[Rune]

Pivoting is more adv. then anything els at the moment, I'm trying to get it down myself and I'm getting better at it, but untill I get tot the point where I can use it and check it's real values I'm not gonna tell people to use it.

As for Samus and Mewtwo.. Mewtwo is simple as ****, just space him out and land some Fsmashes. Mewtwo is prolly the worst char in the game, no real problems here.

Samus.. there's a few other topics going around about this matchup. Comes down to the fact that there are Marth tricksies that work on Samus and Samus doesn't have any really good combo's against Marth either.. just play your usual "get in close and kick his *** around the stage before going for a Fsmash or whatever to finnish it off".

[VilNess]

Yeah, it´s quite lame to tell people to use technique you haven´t tried much in real battle against someone else than comps. (looks at mirror)
However when I tried against a real human I tried Dashdancing when they were on the floor and I followed his teching or kept away from his recovery attack range and then when his tech/attack was over I landed a pivoted fsmash.

I don´t think its the hardest technique now though, I think ledgecancelling is the hardest.

or unless you meant adv. as advertising instead of advanced?

[Rune]

No, I meant advanced.. and yes, LC's are prolly harder, but that doesn't make the pivot any easier. The timing still comes down to 1 single frame you know..

[VilNess]

Yeah, I know... hard to do but after hours of fiddling with it I start to have it on my reflexes. it seems it easier when running and facing right IMO.

You know (a little off topic) I think the designers of the game made Marths and ROys dashdance so long because of their Fsmashes. This is just assuming but since designers seem to aware that when the starting off dash animation is over you can just duck and hit c-stick for a quick F-smash. If These swordmen had a short DD it would be too easy to run towards opponent, duck and smash.
And I´m assuming designers were not aware of that 1 frame off dashdancing, or the whole DD.ing itself?
could this be the reason for their long DD?

[Zeldrew]

I doubt the developers have a **** clue how much we abused the game's functions, lol.

I practiced pivoting once...I did it once too. that was about it. I'll master that later...now tell me, what is ledge cancelling?

[VilNess]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.p...edge+cancelling
or
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45855

[aho43]

Pivoting is the shiznite for marth

[TheArchWarlock]

I´ve qot a question myself: since ganons air mobility isn´t very good, isn´t he a bit vulnerable to juggling?

You would think that he would, but although Marth has a larger attack radius (duh), Ganon has some nasty moves that aren't nice to Marth. His aerial Wizard's Foot has that odd timing and kind of hard to predict, and it really hurts if you try to nair him from the front (so dont do that). You can hit him (I think) while he's using it, but you're timing needs to be really good. His dair is incredibly strong, and I know you can't land a hit on his legs when he's doing it, you have to hit his body, and Marth's sword may or may not outreach it (not sure, never really tested).

Of course, speed is Marth's game here, Ganondorf's moves have a high lag on the front, so if you nail him fast, you can beat him. The safest bet is to try to keep him near the ground as opposed to way up in the air. Easier to do that at lower damages, so juggle early, smash later.

PS Is there a good thread on pivoting?

[VilNess]

how about neutral B? IMO it seems to be bit underrated move... after all, its an air smash and once you learn to change your direction in air with it it is a usable move. I think it can trick Ganon if used correctly.

I don´t know if theres agood thread on pivoting but I think every character should learn it, although marth and roy take most benefit from it. Also DK´s pivoted dsmash can be cool, just like many others!

[Lxl]

Marth's Shield Breaker is good, but Roy's is much better. Of course you don't go around spamming it unless you're Roy...

In the air, I don't think there are many uses for it. First use that comes to mind is keeping Ganon from coming back by jumping out with it, since Ganon's recovery is predictable. Either that or using it on the stage to throw him far enough for edgeguarding..

The only other thing I can think of is SH Shield Breaker. Timing can screw your opponent if he's used to your fairs.

[TheArchWarlock]

how about neutral B? IMO it seems to be bit underrated move... after all, its an air smash and once you learn to change your direction in air with it it is a usable move. I think it can trick Ganon if used correctly.

Agreed.

Quite a tricky move, given how little people use it. The only use I really like with it is this really nasty finishing move where I jump off the stage with them and hit them with it. It works better than any other of Marth's aerials because it leave virtually no lag on the end, so after you clobber them down, you can still recover, especially using the forwardB to help. Hard to pull off, but it fun to watch your opponents face at they stare in disbelief at your audacity to jump off just to beat them down.

But I'm getting off topic. You're right, it would work better against Wizard's Foot (a lot better than nair), but there's still the range problem with Ganondorf's other moves. And how do you change direction in air with it? I've no doubt it's possible, but I've no clue how to do it.

Oh, sorry, off topic again. I really like this move (though I too under use it) because unlike fair, spike, and any of marth's other aerials, you can recover almost instantly off it. I believe it also slows down your fall for an instant, which can throw off an opponent (especially one like Ganon, who relies on near-perfect timing). A great move indeed.

Adressing Lxl, of course Roy's is better. It sets the guy on fire for crying out loud. But then, fighting Ganondorf with Roy has its own problems (forget hitting him with the middle of the sword). And although I like jumping off a cliff to beat an opponent (see above), it rarely works, even against Ganon. And using on the stage is pretty much out of the question, since fsmash is faster (or more powerful, I know it's one of them), and you have to move your finger on the controller to hit the B, not a big issue, but it gives the opponent a split second advantage. And it doesn't feel as good. And you can't C-stick it if you need to. Point made.

Marth's Shield Breaker- good move, bad name.

[VilNess]

what? you don´t know how to change direction with neutral B-moves?
okay: before using shieldbreaker in air lightly press control stick in the opposite direction you are facing. I do this mostly with DK punch but Doc,mario, fire emblem and starfox team can take use of it too! there can be more too...

[ta11geese3]

It sets the guy on fire for crying out loud.

<gamefaqs>TEH FIRE DOES NOTHIGN!</gamefaqs>

[ArC_man]

I dont think shieldbreaker's a very good move... i mean unless you're trying to break his shield >_>. It's laggy if u wiff and ganon can easily punish you for it. Plus is does weak dmg, poor knockback, not exactly insane range (compared to the rest of marth's aerials), and can't be l-canceled. If you want to turn around in the air, there's forward+b, it also stalls you so it can be better for mindgames (b-air turns u around also). SD is also great for combos, and you can often juggle ganon after the 3rd or 4th hit connects.

[VilNess]

I still think its great for mindgames... because
1) it´s an airsmash that can be charged to throw off your opponents timing.
2) it indeed does break opponents shield and even if you only lower it they have to stop using their shield for awhile (well at least most chars. with average-small shield)
3) Wavedash to edge, start charging SB and you´ll slide off the stage while charging it (takes some practise), making it another good option to edgeguard, especially chars like Marios, Marth/roy who have good change if negating edgehogging if not too far away.
4) lagtime isn´t that bad, considering that you can WD from a fulljump after using SB for no-charge or very little charge, unlike dair, which you can´t WD after in stages like FD (unless you get knocked high off course) or just jump, use non-charged SB, after falling instead of WD do another SB(or aerial) just before you land and you can still charge SB to fake your opponents out.

This move is a bit underrated IMO. It´s a bit like Ness´s D-smash: no-one excpets you to do it, however there are fun ways of connecting it, and a hit will result Ness´s opponent in a VERY sticky situation: they are in air and Ness is on the ground ready to start comboing!
off course like SB, if you don´t hit :beezo:

[TheArchWarlock]

what? you don´t know how to change direction with neutral B-moves?
nope, I use ->B

TEH FIRE DOES NOTHIGN!
It looks cool.

It's laggy if u wiff and ganon can easily punish you for it.
Hello? Marth comes out of this move as fast as his ground neutral A. Like I said, you can jump off the stage, use it, and still get back on afterwards. You can't do that with any of his air A moves (maybe neutral A, but that's a dumb move off the stage).

lagtime isn´t that bad, considering that you can WD from a fulljump after using SB for no-charge or very little charge, unlike dair, which you can´t WD after in stages like FD (unless you get knocked high off course) or just jump, use non-charged SB, after falling instead of WD do another SB(or aerial) just before you land and you can still charge SB to fake your opponents out.
I can KO your SM in 1hit with my superdupercharged uberweaponofmassdestruction! And I can BU ur PC with my +10 Dark Elf Halfling with an ls and ikarm. Ha, I win.

LOL :)



But seriously, this is a seriously great move. I used it in a match against Mario and against Link. They didn't know what hit them. Given, I can beat the Mario guy with his own char on his favorite level, and I used my cheap KO move on Link, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT! IT'S A GREAT MOVE!

And it is actually less powerful than a fsmash, unless you charge it for about half a second, which presents timing problems of course.

By the way, are there any other chars that can consistantly outrange Marth's sword?

[Thomas Tipman]

please forgive me for being off topic but whats pivoting?

[aho43]

Hello? Marth comes out of this move as fast as his ground neutral A. Like I said, you can jump off the stage, use it, and still get back on afterwards. You can't do that with any of his air A moves (maybe neutral A, but that's a dumb move off the stage).

Yea, N-air truly sucks off the stage. :rolleyes:

[Rune]

@ TT, pivot.. uhm.. when you dash and cancel your dash by dashing the other way (dashdance) there's one frame in which your char stands upright in neutral position. In this one frame you can preform any move you want 2.. thus, you dash at someone, tap the other way and smash them in the face or something. You have now dashed up to someone and smashed them w/o having to stop dashing, it's insanely fast, but only has a one frame margin.. so it's pretty hard.

Anyhow, this enables you to Fsmash people who DI away from your forward throws. >:]

----

Nair is a great move to kill off stage people with, unless they're to low, but that's where Fair comes in anyway.

SB is a good move, but Marth has better options then that.. it's only real use is when you WD off the stage while charging, but that only workes when the opponent is in a certain area.. next time he'll see it coming.

----

Chars that challenge Marth's range:

Ganon (Fair, Uair).
DK (tilts, smashes, Bair).
Zelda (Bair, Fair).
Link (upB, has pretty good range overall).
Roy (though he can't fight a range match against Marth since Marth's range attacks are way stronger).
Sheik (some tilts have a lot of range, Marth still totally outranges her though).

That's about it I think.. Ganon and Zelda are the only ones who really give Marth trouble because of their range though.
DK is just to slow to be troublesome, Roy's ranged attacks are too weak, Sheik and Link don't have enough range to really challenge Marths range if the Marth player knows what he's doing.

[ArC_man]

Hello? Marth comes out of this move as fast as his ground neutral A. Like I said, you can jump off the stage, use it, and still get back on afterwards. You can't do that with any of his air A moves (maybe neutral A, but that's a dumb move off the stage).

I said if you wiff (as in completely miss)... even if it's blocked you'll be punished since you can't l-cancel it. The "as fast as his ground neutral A" better be a joke >_>

and umm... which of his aerials can't you use off the stage and get back on? You can even use d-air off the stage, jump and up+b back on since marth is so **** floaty.

Don't forget samus Rune, her f-smash and aerials have plenty of range (dunno how they are compared to marth's >_>)

[Rune]

even if it's blocked you'll be punished since you can't l-cancel it.
Wha? You can L-cancel after being bloked, you just have to wait a few frames longer before pressing L.

Samus does challenge Marth, but not his range. Her smashes and airs do have range, but nothing close to Marth's.

[TheArchWarlock]

I said if you wiff (as in completely miss)...

Easy solution--dont miss. And it is very not laggy, it's one of Marth's fastest moves on the back end. Maybe the nA was a little much, but you get the idea.

which of his aerials can't you use off the stage and get back on? You can even use d-air off the stage, jump and up+b back on since marth is so **** floaty.
Nooo, his dair has such long lag on the back end, the odds of you having enough time to get back on (or be high enough on the stage) are very slim. I practiced this for about half an hour on BF and FD, trying to figure out which moves work and which dont. The dair falls in the dont catagory. Fair straddles it, use with caution and/or mad skill. Uair, well, if you want to use uair off the stage, go ahead. Nair is too inaccurate to be much use of the stage, again, caution and/or mad skill. To Bair, just say no. The most reliable ones are ->B and nB, but ->B is pretty much impossible to time there, so nB is the best.
Marth may be floaty, but he's no puffball.

it's only real use is when you WD off the stage while charging
Huh? How does that work? Oh, and if you jump high then come down on them while charging, it should be good enough to KO them, and the whole charging thing kind of throws their recovery off. A bit. And if all else fails, get back to the legde before them and edge hog! :)

[VilNess]

ewww... first jump, then do an aerial and marth can make it back regardless what aerial he used.
Zulus marth made quite a combo. first he swiped robfalcos marth off the stage, used doublejump off the stage and immediately after that he used dair... quite a killer combo.
you can see that vid from txgaming.com and im not sure did zulu do that to robfalco or vice versa. both were still great.

[Rune]

Dude, I've been playing Marth for ages, and I'm quite positive you can come back after any areal. I often get in 2 and still make it back.

[ArC_man]

rune i was talking about neutral b in the air >_>


Easy solution--dont miss

thats very nice advice... and we can say this about ganon's u-tilt, bowser's f-smash, roy's full charged up neutral b too right? Wow they must be pretty godly moves as well huh? I'm saying it's not practical (especially because marth has so many better moves to use). Sure u'll catch a couple people off guard sometimes, but that doesnt warrant it's use.

Whether or not it's laggy... u test it out: l-canceled aerial vs wiffed neutral b. Or in the air, you can do 2 f-airs from 1 short hop.. can you do 2 neutral b's in 1 shorthop?

[Rune]

Sorry, thought you meant Nair.

Neutral b is useless 'cept for suprise areal turn arounds and some edge guarding cases (most of which have better options, but maybe you could use neutral b once in a while to mix them up a bit..)

[VilNess]

well i didn´t mean to compare those moves, my point was to remind that you can WD after a SB in air. I really don´t care how many fairs can you do a that time, my point wasn´t to replace aerials A attacks with SB mind you.

[Rune]

Marth can WD after most of his areal moves though.. nothing special for SB.

[VilNess]

.. but for a B-move it is.
lets see: marios can WD after pills/balls which is useful. Roy probably can after a ->B etc... there are more...
my point is that it´s not so common for a B-move, can work as suprising...

[TheArchWarlock]

my point wasn´t to replace aerials A attacks with SB mind you.
Well, yeah. Marth's fairs dairs and nairs are better options in most situations, but SB has its perks, like the charging bit. And it glows. Pretty lights. :)


I'm quite positive you can come back after any areal.
Even dairs? I suppose it matters where your opponent is off the stage, coming from above or below. I was testing basically running off the stage, or going really far out, practically chasing the guy right after I smashed them, trying to hit them before a counterattack could get them back on the stage (aka where an upB, say, firefox, could go through me and then grab the ledge). Yeah, if you jump up and don't go incredibly far out, it's pretty simple to get 2 fairs in and survive. But then, Rune, you would fall into the "mad skills" catagory, I believe.

[TheArchWarlock]

Oops, forgot to mention.
Marth can WD after most of his areal moves though.. nothing special for SB.
But SB is so weak uncharged (knockbackwise) that there isn't much use for WD since they'll land practically on top of you (high damage excepted) . Of course, you could use it to retreat or gain distance, but you'll probably land far enough ahead to make the point irrelevant. And in that case it would probably be better to dashdance to throw them off instead of WD. Every situation is different though, and the WD could come in handy. I'm just saying...

[Marthlover]

Whoa...people actually have problems with Marth VS Ganondorf??

Here's my ways of battling:
1: Never stand below him. (duh)
2: Watch him because you can easily Counter his every move. (except grabbing/ and the shock move thingie.)
3: Air-Dodge when you're above him.

I play against Ganondorf so often that I think he's a pushover. But he's not to be underestimated ether.

EDIT: I know my stradegy sucks I'm not very good at explaining stradegy I hope to improve at the next tournament.

[Neophos]

Air dodging above someone with such a slow falling speed is asking for a fair in the face.

Stagger > Counter. No good player would be tricked by counter more then maybe once.

And well, u tilt is a pretty good move..>_>

Anyway, I never battled a really good Ganon, so meh, can´t really say much...



Oh, and about PR, which was discussed earlier in the thread, i did so in a long time with Puff. PR a bair on the ledge, follow instantly with fair or another bair =D

[Rune]

But then, Rune, you would fall into the "mad skills" catagory, I believe.

Nah, my skills arn't mad.. I lost to Wes and DSF at TG. Took Wes to his last stock and beat DSF in one match. Got 2-3 in my best of five money match against CJ, but I couldn't take his Sheik with Marth ^^"

Did eliminate The Germ and Cloudstrife, guess that counts for something. ;)

All in all, since they are the madly skilled ones, I must be just below mad.
I have improved a big lot though, but so have they.. prolly.

On topic:

1: Never stand below him. (duh)
2: Watch him because you can easily Counter his every move. (except grabbing/ and the shock move thingie.)
3: Air-Dodge when you're above him.
1: Why not? When he comes down, dodge/shield him and punish.
2: Counter is too obvious and too weak, fun to screw them once in a while, but nothing more.
3: Hmmm, not a bad idea really, but if you do it too early you will get some bad ganon-style punishment.