Fox Vs. Falco (II)

[RaGNoRaK]

I know there is one other Fox Vs Falco thread, but I have some specific questions to ask.

Falco has a easy time with Fox, according to other topics, but I have troubles in certain situations:( Im the fox)

1) When falco grabs me and UPthrows me... he waits for me to DI, then Fsmashs me. Can I stop this...?

2) I get Shined and Fsmashed. Can I stop this..?

3) Im quite... Aerial. But Falco is always higher than me. Falco's D Air beats out Fox's Uair as well.

4) Can't shine him, his phantom spikes....

Is there anyone that can give me some tips/answers in those situations? Or just tutor me on how to play a fox vs a falco.

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

1. At extremely low percents... probably not. Otherwise you should be able to jump away to avoid his fsmash. I've never actually seen a Falco do this, but I'm assuming it'd work at low percents.

2. Are you saying he cancels the shine with fsmash? Cause that isn't real... possible. An usmash maybe, but not fsmash. You should be able to DI away enough to prevent the fsmash, once again possibly not at low percents.

3. This is your biggest problem. you CAN'T win an aerial battle against a good Falco, so stop trying. Fox is safest on the ground, using his dash speed to his advantage. Going aerial will either get you up-tilted or just beaten out by one of Falco's aerials, all of which (minus his fair and uair of course, which he shouldn't be using) beat any of Fox's. The only time you can consistently hit Falco with aerials is to hit his front with a shffl'd nair or bair cancelled into a shine.

4. Don't shine him, just stand near the edge and time a downsmash, it'll beat the phantasm or fire bird everytime.

Your best weapon against Falco (other than edge-guarding) is up throw to up smash. If you throw immediately after the grab to keep them from DI'ing it, it will work at obscene percentages (over 100%, which will usually kill him).

Other than that, you have to basically out mind-game Falco, cause he beats you priority-wise in pretty much every respect.

[RaGNoRaK]

When he shines me, I get sent up. As Im falling down, he smashes me.

Its extremely annoying. I get SH D-aired, shined and F-Smashed. That alone is 40% + he has advantage coming me to me.

Ok, so I stay on the ground. Falco's ground game is pretty good against a Fox as well... especially since he sheildsgrabs, upthrows and smashs me as I DI away from a upsmash.

[Pathetiqu3]

If he only does that one thing with the shine when you get hit out of it, try mid-air dodging him or firefoxing away from him.

[Zanguzen]

Where's suicidefox when you need him? He ripped my falco the first time I fought him- and he happened to be the first person ever to beat me ^^

Anyway, suicide loved to use bair. He would uthrow to bair at mid percents, and since it's hard to DI at those percents and yet Falco still goes off the edge, Fox can have an easy time edgeguarding with a shinespike once falco is below the ledge. Otherwise, downsmash or edgehogging is the way to go. Believe me, it's not very hard to edgeguard Falco. He has the worst recovery.

If his shffls get predictable, you can shield the aerial and spot dodge the shine. Assuming that the Falco will jump based on the assumption you'll be going up, you can respond with a uair which at upper % will easily kill Falco. In fact, suicide used uair to kill me a couple of times.

Yea so your grab game is a great way to start. Shieldgrabbing into down-throw to see if the Falco will tech out of it. If he doesn't, have fun utiltitng him into usmashes or uairs. If he does, you should have the opportunity to shffl a nair. Fox has an easy time edgeguarding Falco. A simple shine near the edge can kill Falco with the proper followup.

Just be happy that the Falco isn't abusing his dthrow. Remember, if he dthrows and ure playing NTSC, a tech will force u to stand up no matter what direction you try and go. So feel free to tech into an immediate shine to stop him. If he uthrows, at lower %s ure at his mercy, but eventually you can either airdodge diagonally downwards or directly downwards or double jump away.

This is based on how suicide killed me. He was the only challenging Fox I ever played. Haven't seen him on the boards lately- but yea if anyone knows how to handle the matchup- he would know.

[RaGNoRaK]

Whoa

Thx alot. That helped... Ive actually never thought or air dodging in the air. But can you describe what you mean by spot dodging and he assumes I will jump up? That... never really happened before.

D-Throw into an Uptilt? Always thought it was down throw into an Uptilt.

[Zanguzen]

Whoa

Thx alot. That helped... Ive actually never thought or air dodging in the air. But can you describe what you mean by spot dodging and he assumes I will jump up? That... never really happened before.

D-Throw into an Uptilt? Always thought it was down throw into an Uptilt.

Np bro-

anyway-

spot dodging is just pressing down and L (or R) to be invincible for a split-second. Normally whenever I do an aerial-to-shine or see other falco players do it, they do their aerial, shine, and jump to either spike down to continue the shine combo, nair to send the opponent flying, or sometimes uair to star KO. That's why whenever I shine, I jump-cancel it to setup a spike. If your opponent Falco is good, he should be jump-cancelling his shine to setup a combo. If he's not, you should have more than enough time to escape after the shine.

Anyway, if he is jump-cancelling his shine, then like I said- you may want to quick shield his aerial, spot dodge the shine, and follow him with a uair since he will probably expect you to be going up (or just shield the aerial + shine and then follow with the aerial). If he doesn't jump, shffl a nair and send him flying and quickly follow up with a shine spike :)

And as for the last question- did you make a typo? D-throw is the same as downthrow- so yea, dthrow to utilt to set up combos (or at high %s, dthrow to dtilt to finish your opponent).

[CORY]

at almost any percent, if falco uthrows you, you'll get hit by a laser which'll let you di even further and let you react alot sooner. the best he can hope for is to uthrow you at low percents and follow where you went with a fair before you jump away (which is really pretty good damage if you can get all the hits in...).

[Cubed64]

Firstly : D-Throw into an Uptilt? Always thought it was down throw into an Uptilt Dude, they are the SAME THING!!!

ok, Fox vs falco is a difficult combo, both characters are good enough so that if you make a mistake, your opponent can capitalise very quickly and make you pay.

Follow the advice the others gave you, its good. You might want to work on your evading skills, im not saying run away and camp, but you should learn when is a good time to roll, WD, spot dodge, triangle jump etc etc etc

A few things to be wary of:
1) Falco's downtilt: If you get caught in this, you will get some serious percentage. Because fox is a FF, falco can just d tilt dtilt dtitl u tilt foward smash. That is a devastating combo.

2) The shine: One of falco's best moves, especially against a FF like fox. The good ol' shine+dair shine+dair combo rapes fox, and even if you do DI away, falco can just follow you in the air and do it anyway.

3) The Spike: Because fox's recovery does that little charge up thingy at the start, it makes fox a sitting duck, so make sure you dont do it in range of the spike. Use forward+b

4) Laser off the stage: If this hits you while you are doing your mid air jump you lose it, and you get stunned a bit so you fall more. theres not much you can do, try and use reflector if you see it coming, and then jump out of it and continue the recovery.

Theres my 2c

[Zanguzen]

at almost any percent, if falco uthrows you, you'll get hit by a laser which'll let you di even further and let you react alot sooner. the best he can hope for is to uthrow you at low percents and follow where you went with a fair before you jump away (which is really pretty good damage if you can get all the hits in...).

Is it necessary to follow with a fair or would a nair be better?

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

At low percents, fair is generally better, because it can usually do more damage. It can hit Fox three or four times is you space it right, which adds up to more damage than a nair would do.

Sure a nair has greater knockback, and you should follow an uthrow with a nair or bair at high percents (assuming the lasers send Fox to a favorable position), but who cares about knockback when Fox is only at 20 or 30%?

Better to rack up the damage, then go for the kill.

[Zanguzen]

Ah ok cool- thanks

[ShineOfScott-SOS]

1) w8s for you to di dont DI

shine to f-smash you cant stop this at low percentage

you can shien spike him stand on the ledge and when he does f-B or up-B time it right and it will spike works for me