Mario and Docs Good/Bad Char/Level Matchups

[The Cape]

What levels does Doc excel on over Mario and vice versa?
Also what characters does Doc excel at beating over Mario?

The characters are alot alike, but they both have their better and worse matchups then their clones. Which one works better here and there and which one works better against who?

Edit:

As an example, Doc tears up in stages with close KO walls and Mario is more suited to the far KO walls.

[Tiller420]

i like mario alot more then doc mario but i think doc mario is like a tiny ganondorf cause his moves r pretty powerful. i live longer with mario and his cape has really good range and is so effective. The cape is underestimated and it could be used constantly and be effective.

[maelstrom218]

The cape is underestimated, and it could be used constantly and be effective

Right on, Tiller. . .personally, I think Mario's Cape to be incredible, only I never see any of the better players using it to any effect. Mindgames w/ the Cape should work out pretty well.

Anyways, Doc is more suited for stages where there's lots of open space and few platforms, like FD, Dreamland 64, Pokemon Stadium, and the like. He needs the space for his Pill Rushes and setups--give a Doc some space, and he can start a great keep away game or some nasty setups w/ his Pills.

Doc is also better suited against characters who have incredible recovery skills, like Jiggs, Peach, and Samus. Mario has zero KO moves (and you can debate me on this if you want to), but Doc has enough power w/ his AFA, d-smash, and f-smash to KO the above opponents sooner than most other characters can.

Doc is also an aggressive player. His Pill Rushes, shffl'd AFA, crouch-cancelled d-smash all lean towards an offensive style. Basically, Doc's about rushing the opponent, keeping as much pressure on them as possible, and beating them to a bloody pulp.

Mario is definitely better suited for smaller, platformed stages. His aerials have more range, damage, knockback, and less lag than Doc's, meaning that he's better at staying in the air to dish out his punishment. Add in the aerial maneuverability due to the Cape, and you have a decent aerial game.

Mario's also well suited for basically any character. . .you can pit him against almost anyone w/o getting seriously owned. His general versatility is especially good against faster characters (Fox, CF), but again, he's generally OK for most matchups.

Mario has to play defensively, unless you're starting some offensive combos. W/ zero KO moves, it basically turns into a war of attrition. . .you have to make every hit count, keep constant tabs on your %damage, and play serious mindgames to get the advantage. His lack of offensive capabilities means that he can't just waltz in and wreak havoc like Doc can, he has to think about every single move in order to squeeze out as much damage as possible. . .in this respect, he's much more difficult to play as compared to Doc. Mario requires serious thinking.

In general though, both have very good d-smashes. Both have underrated combo options from their shffl'd AUA, or Mario's u-tilt. D/u-throws are major combo starters for the both of them. Both can chain-u-throw the space animals. Both need wavedashing for better mobility. Both have terrible recoveries.

And I need to learn how to shorten my posts and be more concise.

[VilNess]

maelstrom: You were asking for it! :D
Marios KO moves in nutshell

Against Fastfallers: Cape kills their recovery, Fsmash hits far and range in it.
(shuffled uairs rack up %... Oh did I mention chain throwing as a possibility too?)

Against normal fallers: basically any smash is usually good depending on situation and stage. Upsmash usually hits higher than Docs, though they are used differently (marios Upsmash can juggle a bit at low % but doc is better with Usmash juggling).

against floaties: Upsmash is your friend here. learning to setup for is the key here (like jab+dtilt) . Also marios sex kick works better as a KO move against floaties than Docs Sex kick, because floaties usually have enough aerial maneuveribity (spelling?) to avoid the strong part of it.

These don´t consider edgeguarding as an option (except caping FF´s) so there are more KO moves for mario.

[The Cape]

I am a Doc and a Mario player. I was asking which characters Mario does better than Doc against, and vice versa. Same thing with stages.

[maelstrom218]

VilNess: I may have asked for it, but bring it on, sucka!:D

A lot of what you listed for the fast-fallers was mostly setups and edgeguarding moves. I'll concede that Mario has excellent edgeguarding options, what w/ the Cape (which screws over many characters' recoveries) and ledge hopped ABAs.

What I meant w/ a "KO Move" was a clearly defined, reliable attack that could consistently KO an opponent at high percentages due to high knockback. Attacks like Doc's AFA, CF's Knee, Samus' f-smash, Shiek's AFA. . .all these moves fit the criteria listed above.

The problem w/ Mario's smashes is that they don't have exceptional knockback. His d-smash is fast but has average knockback for a smash, and his u-smash is definitely crucial against floaty characters like Samus and Peach (vertical KO's are practically your only KO options here), but is usually too situational--his u-smash is actually better as a combo starter than a KO move.

My main beef w/ Mario's f-smash is that it has to be sweetspotted. The thing is, Mario's a close-range fighter, so if he tries to pull off his f-smash at his normal range, he's not going to sweetspot the f-smash. Instead, he has to deliberately pull back out of his normal range in order to sweetspot it, which just screws over his attack rhythm and sense of spacing. Marth may have to sweetspot his f-smash, but he's sweetspotting his other attacks all the time, so it's not contrary to his sense of spacing.

Also, b/c the f-smash has to be sweetspotted, it becomes highly unreliable.

What I'm trying to say is that Mario has no single move which comprises of high reliability and high knockback. Use Mario against an advanced Samus and you'll see what I mean.

[VilNess]

I agree you with most part.
However, I don´t see sweetspotting the FSmash much of a problem.
You always have marios extremely useful WD to help you (of course the opponent can do same to escape it but this goes with probably any move)

And one nice thing thats helping me much... believe or not:
Pivot+Fsmash=Killer attack gets more range, nice speed and helps sweetspotting! FROOT!

And also sweetspotting the fsmash is character dependant too. Sheik is quite thin which makes it harder against her but Peach is moderately wide which helps sweetspotting.

btw. a little off topic. IMO learning to look at your opponents % when attacking is very important to Mario. It seems that Mario has always some kind of setup depending on opponents falling speed and its %.
He´s so goddam versatile its almost scary!
I am still learning these things but something I´ve noticed my earlier mentioned Jab (A)+ dtilt is actually a nice setup on moderate high damage. mario can usually chainthrowup many chars at 0% twice, which is nice to know. And if I remember correctly at low % you can also dthrow to Upsmash quite effectively. And then all kinds of setups from Fair (depending on opponents % and location on stage (air/ground) )

Oh almost forgot: Bthrow is quite nice KO. maybe not strong as Docs, but gets the job done.

Oh about your Samus thing: probably true but who says Mario can´t be played at high level too? IMO mario is so versatile that on most of the matchups you have to blame yourself for losing, not the matchup (which is why I´m getting into mario more and more)


about for the actual topic... I don´t like big stages with Mario. worst one I can think of is Captain falcons 1st stage where Peach dominates.
I like yoshis 3 platform stage, battlefield and FoD.

[FERNO]

Just some thoughts
Marth is **** for the doc one. although d throw leads to so much.

Sapce animals are not too good against doc/mario imo because of cape obviously and easy kills. shine kills are out cuz of up b priority.

shiek vs doc/mario is pretty even imo doc does a little better with f air kill..

falcon is out matched by doc/mario cuz of vunreable recovery and perfect combo weight.

Peach for me is **** with doc or mario, i need some hep on that match up. geez.

my thoughts...:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[VilNess]

With Mario and Doc its quite much about finding your enemys weakness and use your versatile statisctics to take advantage of it.
so with mario I probably would try to set up for Usmash against peach and occasionally trick her with the cape. don´t know too much about this matchup though... Upkills are your friend.

[fraypika]

Stages I like with Doc
Pokem stadium(before it changes but just kinda play it safe until it changes back)
Final Destination(killer doc stage)
Yoshis Story(short, good for back throw)
Mushroom Kingdom 1 and 2 (recovery doesn't matter also good for throws)
Foutain of Dreams(I like platform stages doc has a good u tilt for them and uair)

Stages i don't think are that big of a deal but these are just some of my favorite ones. You just have to know how to play on them and change your style accordingly.

[SynikaL]

shiek vs doc/mario is pretty even imo doc does a little better with f air kill..

Shiek pwns Doc because of her F. air and Docs awful recovery. At least IMO.


-Smash Scrub

[fraypika]

a cape can screw that f air up pretty good and tables have been turned. Also can't you DI it and not make it as potent.

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

There's a reason CJ used Doc against Azen's Sheik at TG^...

A grab means a free smash for Doc against Sheik, plus she's not that hard to combo with uairs and up tilts, as CJ showed.

Also, neither of the Marios is that easy to combo with Sheik, at least in my experience. Downthrow still sets things up well, but not any more than most characters.

Sheik still has the advantage, cause... well she's Sheik, but nothing to constitute "pwnage" IMO.

[VilNess]

Mario or Doc vs. sheik is IMO a pretty even matchup.

CJ showed how sheik can be comboed to nuts with doc.
Now someone might think "but CJ is just so good player he can win sheik even with doc" or similiar.
but think about it this way: there are lots of more sheik players than plumber players.
if you go to a tourney where are 10 shieks and 3 docs and 1 mario it is most likely sheik will win.
off course sheik has better change of winning because there are more of them. think about it the opposite way.

Marios and docs metagame hasn´t evolved as much as sheiks game, not counting Captain Jack and Brown Mario. that´s why its easier to think sheik is better. But those 2 mentioned have proven that you can do nutcomboes with either doc. or mario.

this is IMO off course.

[Cyphus]

imo doc does a good bit better against sheik than mario. As such a powerful tier, sheik is...she can't easily swipe away pills, nor reflect them...thus its not too hard to get her with it, flying over her needles, launching them diagonally downward.
Sheik's early juggles can be sexed kicked through, which is nice. but despite having bad recovery, doc combos work so great on sheik, since her D.air is too slow to save her from combos..and her sex kick isn't any good(compared to most, anyway)
Mario has to be played very similarly against sheik, since playing defensive against sheik gets u no where, and its simply a doc game.
Let me tell you this...i've beaten so many sheiks..and not just noob sheiks...good sheiks, i'm talkin about-with doc.
I never-EVER thought sheik was "good" against doc. Seems fair enough to me, cuz he can exploit more tricks on her, like d.throw-f.smash..than she can with her gerenal bull.


and i don't feel like looking who posted it...but, mario doesn't have any better range or maneuverability over doc. i'd L.O.V.E. an example.

Doc's best stage is mushroomkingdoms2. as said in my doc guide
Recovery is useless(evens doc's out!)
near deathzones-backthrow. small size + good power. quick pushing combos like shuffl'd back kicks. easy pill rushes and retreats.
and stages resembling those qualities best suit him.
Mario works good in those scenarios as well, but they're just best suited for doc.

I'm not a real mario player, but i always thought he's good at pokemon stadium. Basic...not too small, easy fireball retreats. backthrow and cape guarding.


mario and doc don't have too many huge weaknesses per sa.
Mario will have worse time with marth, since his offenses are suicidal w/out the pill...but doc still has a hard time.

u'd THINK mario and doc would be good against ganon..and u'd be right...but not at pro level. Ganon's F.air severely OWNS them...its so easy for him to spam it safely...since they're little nubs can't counter strike, even if he doesn't shuffle it into a jab.
and getting hit by it twice in the air is almost guaranteed easy....low...quick...death. With ganons exellent aerial reach and spacing game, its not so easy to get that grab and cape u thought would make u win the match.
and using those advantages he tends he can combine that with a little pill-hopping and sneak a knuckle to your face.
In that sense, i find mario better suited for ganondorf. Retreating fireballs' angles are alot safer...and luring to AUA when he comes in and his cape, i find, just what he needs to survive from a mistake in the air.

[fraypika]

I like mushroom kingdom 1 better then 2 just because you don't have to worry about birdo and the music is sweet. Still can pill rush and whatnot. It has all the same as 2 just not a birdo.