help my Marth beating Falco plz

[Stuut]

Im actually way better than my friends falco but when I do lose its becuz of some stupid reason I dont know how to counter so plz help me with these probs. when i fall on my face being unable to tech and I:
- roll away from him, falcos running speed is perfect to do the dash atk while Im in the vulnerable frames after the roll
- roll in his direction, he stops running and doing fsmash in my rolling direction to hit me in the vulnerable frames again
- wakeup atk, he does crouch cancel to usmash
He also ALWAYS knows an awnser to ALL my 'recover from'the ledge' tactics, exept for letting go of the ledge and immediately air jumping towards the stage doing fair (wich i cant do with a 100% succes rate).
He also keeps spamming fsmash the whole ****ing time and becuz of that WAY to short lag Im unable to punish it. so can anyone help me with these probs and give some Marth vs Falco tips in general? tnx alot

[Lxl]

When you roll away and are attacked by his dash attack, DI away from him so that you'd be further away from him, so that he requires more time to do follow up combos on you. During that period, you can attack (fair, bair, depending on the situation) or avoid his follow up attacks totally by jumping away. Won't recommend jumping away though, coz' if your friend has a decent Falco, he probably can SHL towards you and punish you further. Alternatively, you could mash down + b to counter when he rushes in, though this might not always solve the problem.

The second one is weird. It's totally up to you how you wanna react when you're fsmashed in the face. Usually his fsmash would send you flying too far for any quick follow up attacks. If your percentage is low and you do are within range for other attacks, what, DI away from him man. Nothing much you can do to avoid this unless you can always tech =). The same goes for the third problem you posed.

When you recover from the ledge, you could also learn to nair when ledge hopping back. I find that this is much more useful than fair, unless your opponent is coming from the top to spike; Nair leaves your top vulnerable. Other than that, I think it's based on mindgames. Mix your method of ledge recovering. Jumping and tilting backwards to grab the ledge again might come in handy to throw off timing occasionally. You could attack, roll, or just stand up (simply press up when edge hanging), but only do so if you're below 100%, otherwise you're screwed. But since he has problems with the ledge hop-attacking technique as you said, exploit that. Learn how to attack when ledge jumping back to the stage at Training or something so that you can do it 100% of the time.

As for general tips, Marth has a very good grab game. At early percentages, you might be able to chain throw up Falco if your friend can't DI properly. Or, you can fthrow to tipped fsmash at the edge to edgeguard, giving an easy KO. This leads me to mentioning about Falco's predictable recovery, which you should take advantage of. If he's sweet spotting the edge, dtilt or edgehog/edge roll. If not, ftilt or dair if you can while he is firebirding. And about the fsmash spamming, do shuffled fairs. The range of Marth's fair is much more compared to Falco's fsmash =).

Hope this all helps.

[TWP]

When you roll away and are attacked by his dash attack, DI away from him so that you'd be further away from him

Rolls go the same distance no matter how hard/fast you do them. That's why its easy for him to punish you. because he knows where the roll ends.

bair, depending on the situation)

My advice, nair over bair ANY day...

Alternatively, you could mash down + b to counter when he rushes in, though this might not always solve the problem.

On the right track, although counter ain't gonna help much. One thing is throw them off by charging right back at them and using Marth's grab range over Falco's dash-attack range to grab him out of his move...I'll talk about applications of counter in a second...

Usually his fsmash would send you flying too far for any quick follow up attacks. If your percentage is low and you do are within range for other attacks, what, DI away from him man. Nothing much you can do to avoid this unless you can always tech =).

Depends on the damage, you can always just CC the attack and respond with a D-tilt, shffl'd nairs/fairs, fsmash, etc. For Falco's fsmash the CC option is usually preferred because you can stay a bit closer, and also can save your life.

This leads me to mentioning about Falco's predictable recovery, which you should take advantage of. If he's sweet spotting the edge, dtilt or edgehog/edge roll. If not, ftilt or dair if you can while he is firebirding. And about the fsmash spamming, do shuffled fairs. The range of Marth's fair is much more compared to Falco's fsmash =).

All good ideas, although if he likes to do a bit 'ole sweet spotting, you can also counter his firebird and then send him back down at an almost shine-esque angle. It's just another option to keep him guessing how you're going to react

Another thing to look for opportuinites, is from the grab (at low percentages) U-throw to u-tilt to whatever floats your boat, can get thme into the air and lead to Marth's amazing air game.

-Oh and that wakeup stuff...Roll....just Roll out of your "lying" down posistion away from him...


I'll probably come back to edit some stuff (heck I know I will) but the more you play him the more you'll see the flaws in his game and start to exploit them.

[Stuut]

yo thanks for replying, these things mite even work, exept for the rolling thing for sure. im asking if theres any possibility to just NOT get hit after a wakeup/roll and not end up in a bad position. I dont mind combos, but I just dont wanna get hit becouse of the stupid reason that rolls are predictable.
and is it true that falco has advantage over marth on FD, and if so, then whats the best way to do when fighting flaco there?

[Glide]

Well, I'd say that Falco has an advantage on FD. I'd most likely fight him on Battlefield.

Falco's pretty tough to take. He's quick, and strong, and he can pull some mean combos. The key to beating Falco in my opinion, is in edge-guarding, and spacing. Spacing is difficult to do; Falco's fast enough to put himself inside and safely away from tipper range. Good use of spacing, and the u-tilt juggles can allow for some early tippers. Tipping Falco at around 40% can lead to a nasty edge-guarding game, and even worse, tipping at about 70% can lead to a kill simply because Falco's recovery isn't too great.

Edge-guarding is essential to beating Falco. If you do send him out, do not, I repeat, do NOT let him back in. Falco's recovery is one of the most predictable in the game; try to get inside your opponent's head, and understand where he's gonna go. Interrupt his recovery with an f-tilt; not an f-smash. The smash is a little slow, and the tilt will end up working well enough against Falco's bad recovery.

[ArC_man]

Learn how to tech everything... with marth's floatiness/falling speed it's ez to tech like.. everything (maybe other than spikes or something). If you can't tech, you'll be punished severly, it's basically a free grab/hit for any char thats quick. Best thing you can do is try to roll away before they can get to you (like if they spiked you and you couldn't tech.. try to roll away before he recovers/lands/etc)

getting back on... u definitely need to get the drop, jump, attack 100%. Remember, since marth's so floaty you can drop, attack and even if you don't get on the stage you can still grab onto the ledge... if you somehow drop too low you can still use up+b... which falco can do almost nothing about if you sweetspot correctly.

In other words, work on your techniques... if you can't back up your game with techniques, all the tips in the world won't help (or at least won't help as much).

tips? grab whenever you get the chance. If he techs, follow it... if he doesnt, smash (this is with forward and down throws). As said earlier, you can chain falco starting at like 15% or something with u-throw till like mid 40's then u-tilt, etc.

TWP i think by DIing he means AFTER marth is hit by the dash attack, DI away from any attempts at follow-ups.

[Lxl]

Yea. I think you misunderstood me TWP, I wrote all that on account that he is attacked after his roll, during the vulnerable frames. Stuut said in his first post that he is attacked after his roll, and from how I see it, he wants to know what to do after Falco's attack from his roll.

Hope it clears things up a bit.

[Stuut]

lol arcman I know how to tech, I was talking about when u fall hard on your face, you cant tech it. and i was asking what to do when im lying on my face there and falcos running at me and what I should do then. back roll and standup wont work on falco becous his running speed is perfect for hitting me in the vunlerable frames when standingup. when I roll forward he usually has 50% chance of hitting me with fsmash, so that depends on his concentration. so no matter what i do, I dont have the ability to rule the fight from that point, it all depends on him. and I hate that, so Im asking is there r more options after lying paceplanted besides from the rolls and standingup.

also, when he does phantasm (he wont try to sweetspot the edge becus he cant do that with 100% succes, so he always phantas' at me), should I try to edgeguard or just shield. this of course depends on my skills and timing but what would u do?

arcman I didnt mean recovery, but what to do FROM the ledge when hes waiting for me to get im my 'cant do a thing but still vunerable' frames, like the roll and forward jump.

and falco can be chain throwd from 0%

[ArC_man]

I'm pretty sure there's no fall that you can't tech.. either that or i've never been hit on my face before....

even if you dont tech and he's running at you, what you can do is wait for him (ur vulnerable on the ground so he'll prolly come dash attacking) and roll towards him at the last moment so his dash attack goes through you. Of course it's your duty not to get caught in one of those situations anyways.

neutral a will beat out phantasm 100% of the time as long as u time it

I kno you meant from the ledge (as in you hanging from the ledge him edgeguarding you). My post meant, if you jump off the ledge (from hanging) and do an f-air and mess up (since you say you don't have it 100%), you can still grab on after the f-air finishes and even if you really mess up and you fall lower than the stage you can sweetspot the ledge with up+b and it'll reset the situation.

[Stuut]

wich jump do you mean? normal jump (wich has huge lag in the air), back tilt jump, let go and immediately doin 2nd jump?

[Lxl]

I think arc_man is referring to the let go of the edge and immediately jump. And about the phantasm thing, since your friend phantasms at you, counter. You could also ftilt if you can time it correctly. Or, CC it (at low percentages, that is) and throw him back off the stage.

[TWP]

Oh sorry, looking at it again I guess I did misread it...My bad...I guess MY suggesstion would be don't roll, but if you are rolling DI-ing away is probably your best bet. So good Call...

Anywho, CC a phantasm might not be the best idea, considering even afte rhe hits you he will travel well on behind you...
Also, you should either shield the initial hit and then turn aroudn to chase him, or just move. I think (in school can't test) that counter-ing it will just end with you hitting thin air because he will still be moving.

Beyond that, recvoering against Falco with anybody is a pain, because of that spike. The only thing any of us can say is learn to sweet spot the edge. Doing that will limit his chances of spiking you from the beginning.

Once you make it to the ledge, waste no time getting back up. You only have limited invincibilty frames. Your option of recovery from the ledge should change with what your friend does. If he stands over the ledge, constantly doing his dair, push L or R to roll back onto the edge with invincibility roll frames to avoid the spike. If he's stand back, do a ledge hop nair/fair. (Puch down or back and then immediately jump)

If you get him off the edge, probably the easiest part is now open to you. Edge-Guarding with Marth against Falco is almost as Simple as Charging B, F-tilt, D-tilt, Counter. Almost all of these will send Falco into the tumblign animation and end any hope of his recovery.

Now as far as the "fighting" goes, I think someone already mentioned spacing, and alls I can say is f-tilt, d-tilt, fair, nair, u-tilt, grab. These are probably the core moves for your game, and keep abusing them to make openings. Against a heavy Fast Faller liek Falco, you don't need a f-smash to kill, just a well placed f-tilt, or d-tilt will make it nigh impossible for him to recover if you edge-guard right.

[Stuut]

lol my friend cant spike he prefers edgehog so thatll b no prob. and i just tryd counter on phantasm and 2nd jump nair on his edge guarding and those work great. the roling thing is still weird its like he knows what im gonna do, waiting and rolling IN him wont work. but 1 prob is better than 3 (still annoying tho), so ill b fine for now. anyway tnx for the tips

[Stuut]

this thread can be deleted now

[SynikaL]

You need to learn to stop rolling so much. That could possibly the definitive reason he's beating you.


-Syn

[SynikaL]

*delete*


-Syn
(move along kids, nothing to see here)

[SynikaL]

*delete*

-Syn
(whoops!)

[RexMaster]

Actually, before this gets deleted, I've got one more "Marth Vs Falco" question. Just to note, this was on FD

Today, I was doing a mini-tourny(ie: 1on1's), and I ended up against a very annoying falco. He wasn't GOOD, or even TECHNICAL by anyone's standards. But, he could do a few things:

#1: run away.
#2: Laser me. not even SHL, just straight-out "gayzor"-ing me. Spam.
#3: keep lasering. I must resort to jumping to get anywhere NEAR him.
#4: Whenever I approach, he'd either shield-grab (regardless of my attempts to fair him from a decent distance), or do something like shield-fsmash or something, knock me somewhere, and IMMEDIATLY run to the other end of FD. If I wasn't still in the air/off stage, instead of running, he'd just roll the whole way, shield-grabbing if I get to close.

-repeat, until I'm at 100%dmg, or something similarily disabling.


I've tried dsmashes(when he rolls), counters(when he's shooting and I'm near), dancing blade(to get closer/attempt to hit out of lasering), grabbing(though he usually gets me first), and a couple of other things, but still got whooped quite fairly.


The only strat I could think of that WOULD work was "tourny at Battlefield instead of FD". :dizzy:

any help is much appreciated.

[Zanguzen]

I agree with Synikal. Stay in close range with falco. You outprioritize him and your range is obviously better. uthrow to utilt to nair, and then try and fsmash him with a tipper. After he's off the edge, forget it- he's dead. Marth is the best edgeguarder, and Falco is the worst recoverer. Dtilt, fair, edgehog to bair or edgehog + R, fsmash, B, etc.