Ganondorf reduced to a mere rabbit?

[Thomas Tipman]

from what ive seen and read everyones strat on playing ganondorf is hop like a bunny punch and L-cancel, nobody believes he's good unless you play him like that. does anyone play him differently i know i do and i own with my ground game how come no one give that a chance?

[Glide]

Because Ganon's ground game is easier to punish. shffl'd aerials are important to his game simply because they make it harder for your opponent to attack you without getting hit for twice the damage in the same instant: This is where Ganon excels, and one of the main reasons that he is considered a Marth counter. Granted, it's possible to play him grounded, but it's much more difficult due to the laggy start-up and ending animations on most of his attacks (key word, MOST. Not all. I'm excluding pretty much only the u-smash and jab. Maybe the f-tilt, but I won't get into the reasons I have for going around the f-tilt). These attacks can and probably will be shielded/dodged and punished. Also, it's harder to play a good mind-game with your opponent on the ground. Ganon has pretty good traction, and also a jump that's just slightly longer than most other characters to start off with. This equates to an awkwardly timed wavedash (though that's not too big of a deal; just kinda slows you down a frame or two) and a very short wavedash. While it's still useful from time to time as can be seen by so many Ganon players, it's just not going to give you the mobility or the edge that Ganon needs on the ground. Arguably, you could use the Gerudo Dragon to augment your movement, but again, it's a little laggy to come out and can be shielded and punished succinctly; probably more often than most Ganon players would like. The only thing I can really see that's incredible about Ganon's ground game is his grab/throw game. However, that's usually great because of the aerial follow ups. True, there are some pretty cool ground-based things you can do (especially to fast-fallers) but truth be told, it's faster and less likely to screw up if you do take to the air. I would mention Ganon's shield game, which in my opinion is pretty good, but again, that's very much aerial based. Just in general, I can't see any reason NOT to play Ganon in the air; he's just a lot quicker there, and his power doesn't take a hit at all from it. His ground moves are pretty much situational at best, and in my opinion are probably just there for combo finishers from the air, or a kill option from a grab.

[Thomas Tipman]

its not that its not good to shffl afa or any arial in that case but to spam it like a wild child is stupid, ganon has a crazy ground game that few use. im not saying dont shffl i just think only idiots can fall for it if you spam it like some of the matches ive seen on dc++

[Glide]

Well, believe it or not, they're not spamming. Most of the time, it's actually a calculated action taken to either 1 - connect with the attack, 2 - trick the opponent or 3 - pressure the opponent. Of course, I don't see a whole lot of people who complain about how overused Shiek's tilst are, or how often Falco's blaster is used. To say that it's better not to use Ganon's best options is to tell Marth not to use his f-smash. It makes him worse, just like it makes Ganon worse to tell him not to use his aerials. Not to say that they'd suck, but it would definitely hurt their games.

[UNDlSPUT3D]

Actually Marths forward smash sucks.. I would refrain from spamming that. SO MUCH LAG. So punishable. As for the jab. It's hard to punish a misused jab, and like glide said you can trick them, froward air them with enough room to not be sheild grabbed, and jab, they'll have their sheild up in most cases , but the mix it up with dash dance into a grab. Mind games. I don't know just experiment.

[Thomas Tipman]

ok i think some might not understand, shffl'd a are good but what i was pointing out was how some people use it when they have opportunities to na,WD,da, shffl afa (ex.). the shffl a's are good and help create distance but not taking advantage of a few hits before using shffl'd a's is just making less use of him, i view shffl'd a's as ending moves. i'll see if i can find the video i downloaded and i'll post the name of it so you can get it on dc++.

[Glide]

...if you're just seeing people Spam the f-air, then you're watching the wrong people =/ Most vids I see have plentiful use of the d-air and b-air, and in my opinion, a little bit more of the u-air (great move. speed, priority, whoo!)

But if that's your point, then your post topic is a bit misleading.

[Thomas Tipman]

how is it misleading? air attacks are good but there is not strong ground game, i play 2 friends of mine who use shiek differently and the only way i can beat them is with a strong ground game. shffl a's will get me owned if i realied mostly on that, thats why i was surprized to see a good few ganon fights with him just shffl cause i would think most good smash players will own and i get owned with novice smash players imagine if i tried to pull that crap on the big boys!!!!! but i guess if you wanna use ganon as a pogo stick be my guess just try to work on your ground game and you'll notice opponents fall at your feet.

[Glide]

"Ganondorf reduced to a mere rabbit?"

When people read that topic, it leads them to believe that short hop aerials are bad because you're being "reduced" to that point. That's why it's misleading. I won't comment on everything else you said, simply because you give no support for it. I therefore mark it off as opinion.

[Thomas Tipman]

reduced is not the key work "rabbit" is. its not that shffl are being overused, their being only used (sorry for the sarcasim) i supported the idea when i explained how sheik can own a shffl ganon with no ground game, ive been beat by sheik if my ground game wasnt up to par and ive seen people get own for the same reason (on dc++ and tourneys). if you dont believe me watch or download any sheik and ganon fight you'll see the a** whoopin he'll get if he hops around and doesnt have a strong ground game.

[TestRider]

Thing is, Ganon will pretty much always get his *** handed to him by Sheik. No matter how you play, there's no stopping the chain grabs and tilt combos of doom.

[Thomas Tipman]

WHAT!!!! ARE YOU INSANE!!!! IVE SMASHED SHEIK SO MANY TIMES ITS ALL ON HOW YOU PLAY, HOW COULD YOU SA...
*blood vessel explodes in head*

[footnbaseball]

your friends suck, play a good shiek and youll have some trouble trust me.

really, people use his air game because its good. fair is a good move, you cant deny that. its relatively quick, and powerful. uair is awesome, quick, powerful, and you can use it to spike right into an edgehog, making it an awesome edgeguarder.

but he does have a point, and glide i think your vastly underrating his ground game. jab is a great, quick move to make room between you and the opponent, and on heavy guys at low %s you can do it 2-3 times, and follow with a ftilt. Also, i would like to hear your reasons for going around ftilt, because i think its a very good move, quick, and good range. down tilt is great to pop people up into the air, where you can do these awesome air attacks on them. usmash is just to strong to pass up, even if it is a little situational. its a good edgeguarder against people difficult to uair spike. dsmash and fsmash are situational, ill give you that. and utilt is useless. but that doesnt negate his whole ground game.

[Glide]

To quote myself:
"key word, MOST. Not all. I'm excluding pretty much only the u-smash and jab. Maybe the f-tilt, but I won't get into the reasons I have for going around the f-tilt".

I'll attest to the fact that jabs are amazing, and the u-smash really hurts and comes out fast enough to warrant some use. I dunno how useful it is in edge-guarding, but eh, that's not a point I'm gonna bother with at the moment seeing that I haven't even bothered with it before; I haven't got any experience as to that aspect of the u-smash.

I don't know about the down-tilt; it's hard to connect with really. If you do manage to connect though, It'll do okay... I think that his d-smash is kinda superior in terms of setup material, but that's something that I'd rather leave to talk about some other time, considering how situational both attacks are. However, I'd like to note that you talk about the follow up to Ganon's d-tilt pop-up; the reason that the pop-up is so valuable is that it allows you to follow up with some of those so called rabbit like moves.

All in all, no it doesn't negate his whole ground game; it does however take the emphasis off fighting on the ground. The way I see it, Ganon's ground game is all about setting up for the air-game which is pretty much where he manages his best. That's the big address to the good parts of his ground game, which can be seen at the end of the original post. I talk about it after the line "True, there are some pretty cool ground-based things you can do...."

and, since you asked nicely:
I tend to go around Ganon's f-tilt simply because I can't follow up too easily after it, and don't have a good way to lead into it. It is quick, it does have good range, and it does have decent knock-back/damage potential, but it's essentially a poke, and that really doesn't fit my style too well.

[Thomas Tipman]

oh trust me i get trouble with that sheik, its always that afa that gets me to fly off the stage, but with the chain grabs its usually me pullin it off. sheik isnt immune to it cause she falls so fast maybe she's not as light as she appears, i mean those wraps could be tucking away a beer belly or some chunky thighs but we'll never know.

*tipmans spirit flys away*

[footnbaseball]

meh theres no point arguing about this, it just comes down to how you play ganon...so tom, in response to your original question: do whatever you want

[TestRider]

Well let's see about Ganondorf's ground game :

Neutral A : Yeah, this move is the ****. No denying that. But its most potent use is still probably as a follow-up to blocked aerial attacks, just like a shine from Fox or Falco. So there you go again with the "rabbit" style.

Forward tilt : Good as a chain grab ending, for edgeguarding and for poking. Spaced correctly, it is very hard to punish and lets Ganon keep the pressure on his foes.

Down tilt : Meh. It's a good counter-attack when you've just crouch-cancelled an opponent's blow, but beside that it has little use. It's pretty slow (isn't the down smash faster?) and leaves you wide open if crouch-cancelled. Can also be used for edgeguarding, poping foes up in range of a fair. Once again, sets up for Ganon's air game.

Up tilt : Unless your friends like getting their shield broken, ain't gonna see too much use of this.

Forward smash : Bleh. Like everyone said, very situational. Sometimes you can fit it in combos, which is always cool.

Down smash : Again, situational. Punishes rolling foes well, and sometimes sets up for very damaging combos. But considering its slowish startup speed (at least as far as down smashes go), there's little use for it overall.

Up smash : Yeah, Ganon's smashes are very situational indeed. I wouldn't go around edgeguarding with this, since a forward tilt could do the same job without being so risky. I prefer to stay clear from this one, since many Ganon players who use it end up being too glutton and try to fit it in combos where there's simply no room for such a move. An aerial down+A is easier to land and will usually accomplish more anyway.

Dash attack : Actually pretty good. Fits nicely into combos when your opponent starts DIing out of range of other moves. Hindered by Ganon's slow running speed, but dashdancing makes it potent. Like the up smash, crappy Ganons tend to overuse it.

As far as B moves go, the Wizard's Foot is an awesome punisher, but that's as far as it goes. Gerudo Dragon makes for nice mix-ups and mind games, and lets you approach certain projectile spammers with relative ease.

So yeah, all in all I'd say Ganon does have an excellent ground game, especially with his awesome throws. Problem is, the game is simply too oriented towards aerial combat. Staying on the ground will only limit your mobility and leaves you helpless against well-spaced shuffled aerials.

[footnbaseball]

Originally posted by TestRider

Up smash : Yeah, Ganon's smashes are very situational indeed. I wouldn't go around edgeguarding with this, since a forward tilt could do the same job without being so risky.


did anybody notice that when i said that, i said its good to edgeguard people who are hard to uair spike? thats your teleporters right there, mewtwo, zelda, shiek. for the most part, your just trying to hit them blindly, and if your just trying to hit them blind, why not hit with something hard?

[Thomas Tipman]

I usually always f+smash teleporters or if im not sure exactly where their going d+smash

[TestRider]

did anybody notice that when i said that, i said its good to edgeguard people who are hard to uair spike? thats your teleporters right there, mewtwo, zelda, shiek. for the most part, your just trying to hit them blindly, and if your just trying to hit them blind, why not hit with something hard?

Yeah I didn't realize that. I also tend to use Ganon's up smash when waiting where I think they'll land.
...well actually I use the up smash with pretty much every character in this situation.

[Banks]

silly tipman

............................

[Hyper-Link]

Hmm, short hopping is good for Ganon, but his down tilt is actually pretty good. Has crazy range, plus you'll be crouching while doing it so even if you are attacked then you won't get knocked far, and most importantly, it sets up air attacks

But ya, i bet if I had a clone of myself, and he played ganondorf, and I played my Link, i'm just straight up rape him especially if he was short hopping and whatnot.

*Ganon bunny hops aerials and tries to seem scary and fast by wavedashing*
*Link fires about 20 boomerangs and bombs at this quick hopping Ganon, and when he dodges, shields, responds to the projectiles, then lightning Master Sword stabs Ganon in various places

[Mr. M]

My ground game with Ganny boy is much stronger then my air game. I just don't believe in pogo-ing his airs. But that is just me. I perfer the ground moves.

But you know Ganon has one mean air game. :) Almost meaner then his Ground game...

[Hyper-Link]

Nah his air game rapes everyone's air and ground game in the entire game

[Banks]

true that^

[Thomas Tipman]

hahaha i love this thread, im still sticking to alot of what i said. gotta have a good ground game or you ****ed.

[Vall3y]

lol he is **** right my ganon really looks like a rabbit.

[Hyper-Link]

All I know is his down tilt ='s pawnage

[boy11]

I like using the ground game, I always find that it works pretty well, especially when you get up close, and you can get in that occasional Warlock Kick, catching your opponent totally off guard. For juggling and edge guarding though, I tend to favor the reverse UAir.

[Kujirudo]

Well, if you don't bunny punch a lot(wich I don't since I still don't get it good enough) you can at least win from lvl 9 characters. But I've never really played a tournament or against an opponent with equal skills(the people that play Smash in my area are all guys who only play it when they are at my home). So I don't know if it could work out in a tournament.

[Alberick]

Air game for me, its strong enough to make things easy

[Renth]

from what ive seen and read everyones strat on playing ganondorf is hop like a bunny punch and L-cancel, nobody believes he's good unless you play him like that. does anyone play him differently i know i do and i own with my ground game how come no one give that a chance?


My ground game with ganon owns screw that what's next saying ganon gets his own tier?
Bunny Tier? lolz Ganon is too good

[ww.havok]

I made i thread just like this about Fox my s**t was close.....wat a *****........GOD HAS BLESSED YOU!

[RyokoYaksa]

Is this a burn on Tipman or something? Why is this old piece being brought back up?

[Hyper-Link]

Hmmm, I have no idea

[GanonPWN!]

you are curios as to how some other people might play ganon, well being the orginal king that i am i use a variety of strategies that may soudn retarded at first, but anyone who has played against me knows im not as terrible as the strats sound..


I like to spam forward B
I like to Up B people who jump at me, not even a UPB out of shield
I use tilts
and Jabs lots
and i edgeguard with mindgamed down B

[falcosmassacre01]

its not that its not good to shffl afa or any arial in that case but to spam it like a wild child is stupid, ganon has a crazy ground game that few use. im not saying dont shffl i just think only idiots can fall for it if you spam it like some of the matches ive seen on dc++



the way i use ganon i do like unexpected things lets say i hit a fox or falco off the stage obviously they are going to illusion back on or else its a spike,anyways wen they are off stage about to do the ilussion i chase with the down b i personally think i created that because i never seen anyone that that with ganon. as a matter a fact i would like to have a ganon ditto with anyone (except warriorknight lol)and ill show you wat i can do with him if anyone wants the challenge pm me.



also you can also relate ganon to falcon i main falcon so i know that alot of people expect me to shffl alot so i trying to switch it up and do grabs pivot stuff like that.

[ThatGuy]

I've taken a bit of your advice Tip, I'm trying to improve my ground game because I see I get screwed a bit for my bunny tactics (Ex. Wavedash back Fsmash).

I was able to tech chase a guy today with DC jabs, and when I chased the next time, he expected a jab and spot dodged, when I actually faired and crushed him. =)

[Hyper-Link]

I think I might view Ganon as a secondary now, along with Doc. but in a tourney, I'd prolly use Doc over Link and Ganon, cuz Doc don't got that many weaknesses

[Team Giza]

My Ganon is still very much a rabbit. However, more recently I have been working on finding more set ups for the Up smash and down smash. Recently I have been enjoying these moves more and more. I think one of the problems for people with Ganon's ground game, at least for me, is I always find it very hard to consistantly pivot with him, especially his down tilt which is hell to perform.

Ive been putting alot of effort into improving my Ganon's ground game. But still have troubles with grabbing and using the Gerudo Dragon effectively. However my grabbing is becoming alot better, however still not near what I want, I am trying to tech chase using the Wizards Foot lately and sometimes the Gerudo Dragon.. though I usually end up screwing that one up.

The main problem I am feeling right now with my game however is I am not sure if my recent opponents DI too well. I am afraid that most of my set ups will not actually work against more skilled players and if that happens I may be reduced to a mere bunny at my next tournament showing, which frightens me cause I dont think that will win me the game like my Sandstorming (what I call my combos/set ups with the Down/Up Smashes). When my friends play Ganon they really are just hoppers and I can easily beat them with my style which has more groundplay in it, but if my current style doesnt actually work on players with good DIing... well once again I think I may be screwed.