New Fox infinite combo (no wall)

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Basically a new infinite combo that's far too hard for most people to do. If you can do this then go crazy, 'cause noone else seems to be able to.

Here's an extract from the backroom topic on it.

Okay, as most people know a double shine can be performed in which were the second shine done fast enough the character (though usually Falco and not Fox) would stay grounded. For this reason this infinite works, though is much harder to put to practise than the drill infinite. The idea behind it is that the Fox must dash at the opponent, and as dashing into them double shine as fast as possible...if done fast enough the second reflector is done in the midst of a slide caused by the low traction...this part isn't too hard to do. The harder part however is the ability to continue this by WD out (towards the opponent) and dashing back into the double shine fast enough to catch the opponent still stunned.

That's all. If you can't do it don't feel bad :)

[the_suicide_fox]

Actually you don't need to do a double reflector. You can just do one and then wd out. Some characters you can even run behind and reflector in the opposite direction and keep it going in a circle.

[RockCrock]

I demand videos.

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Actually you don't need to do a double reflector. You can just do one and then wd out. Some characters you can even run behind and reflector in the opposite direction and keep it going in a circle.
It's escapable to some this way, and does less damage.
I demand videos.
Then make some:)...as I mentioned noone can really do it long enough to bother recording yet. Maybe in some time I'll put a vid up, but not until I can do it for a good deal of time.

[soberfox]

Hrm...this is really difficult. I went into training and tried doing this consistently for almost an hour, with no success at all. I think I might have actually done it once or twice, but was so stunned that I did it, I couldn't keep it going.

This would be nice to be able to put to good use, but I just don't see it happenning anytime soon.

[GanondorftheXXVI]

I do not understand how to do this. The wording has me confused. Could you describe it step by step please? And, I'd like to know what makes it more difficult to do than the inverse drill shine.

thx

P.S. But from what I understood, it sounds hella difficult :eek:.

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I do not understand how to do this. The wording has me confused. Could you describe it step by step please?
I'll try.

OK well first of all you must understand that if you double shine fast enough (reflector jump cancel reflector) you will not leave the ground.
Second of all you must understand that while on the ground coming to a sudeen stop will cause you to slide along the floor some.
Third of all you must be able to wavedash(WD) out of a reflector with optimal speed.

Now it's all just put together:
1-Run in and double shine without leaving ground.
2-If 1 was performed fast enough you will slide in towards opponent with the double shine...WD out(still going forward) and continue towards the opponent(you will need to alter the length fr different characters).
3-If you're fast enough they will be double-shineable again, even those characters who aren't victims of the drill-shine inf will fall for this if you're fast enough.
4-Just follow the steps again from the grounded double shine.


And, I'd like to know what makes it more difficult to do than the inverse drill shine.
The drill shine can allow for small imperfections...this however will not.
I think I might have actually done it once or twice, but was so stunned that I did it, I couldn't keep it going.
Learn to double shine without leaving the ground as Falco first perhaps...that's how I learn to.
This would be nice to be able to put to good use, but I just don't see it happenning anytime soon.
I occassionally use it in a match but only for 2 reps. I can't seem to be able to do more than this when the pressure is on. Heck even when it isn't I can only do 4 reps (that's 8 reflectors) at best before choking! Yeah, it's really hard....the way i see it though so was drill shine at first....so perhaps this will become easier for ppl after a while were they to bother with it.

[RockCrock]

Have you come up with a name for this new infinite yet?

DShine infinite... or DShine Slide... something along those lines would be good...

[Cronos_Rainbow]

DShine infinite... or DShine Slide... something along those lines would be good...
Umm...yeah name lol.
Yeah DSS inf. Double-Shine-Slide will do......and I wanna code name it; IronFox! lol, yes, yes indeed.

[Umbreon]

hmm it's hard. I'll give you that. I don't see it as particularly useful though...

[FlowinWater]

This is sexy but not really usefull. Some peeps can just mess up the Infinite timing by CCing. this is god against the wall though. DShine then Short hop Dair to Dshine. *drools*

*reminds to self that doesn't play fox, leaves*

[the_suicide_fox]

Plus for those who don't slide far enough it won't work, because you can't cancel a dash with a crouch therefore you can't do reflector from a dash. You need to be doing a full on run. And I can do the infinite reflector trick perfectly, so if I find time this week I'll make a video.

EDIT: Yo!! I tested this compared to what I said earlier. It's really hard, so I was only able to do it once or twice, but I tested it on Luigi and it WORKS! You can actually combo Luigi from reflector with this, but only if you are running (and I found other ways to combo Luigi from a running reflector) but yea, whatever, I'll make a video once I can do it long enough for it to be worth it.

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I know it works :) that's why I posted about it!

Yeah, now you know how I feel suicide, that's why I don't make a vid just yet :S

Keep at it though, it's cool :)

[Mr.C]

well i know what ur saying and yes it does work adn no it isnt harder then drill kick shine also it is freaking easy to do :p
if i wasnt lazy and had money i would make a vid, but most peeps would prefere the drill kick because it is safer and faster to get into

[the_suicide_fox]

Well it's wierd because it works, but it really only works on the characters who can't be caught in the drillshine infinite. I mean, it still works on DK and Bowser and what have you, but it seems to work best especially on those who fall to the ground. It's hard to get them caught infinitely with the wd though, and it IS possible to tech out of it but it's very hard.

[Umbreon]

I got 4 repetitions on Marth and shinespiked him, that's my best so far...
Then I got bored an inversed Peach to 880% :D
Ahh how I miss the old forms of ownage.

[RAAB]

holy crap that is hard... i cant do it :( i will get it. i will. drill kick combo was a pain. and now a new infinite... thats almost impossible. howd you think of that? mistake on friend battle? or just thought of it?

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I came up with it after looking at what I do with Falco (which is the double shine fast enough to stay grounded) then thought of trying it with Fox. The fact that Fox shine makes the opponent move sideways sort of made way for the rest, and that's about it really. Just tried it a few times, got lucky enough that I done it right away (or else I would've given up) and so it came to be.
Keep it up though, I think it's worth it. Other people working on it too is good. Thanks for giving it the time of day guys. :)

[usea]

Actually you don't need to do a double reflector.
It's escapable to some this way, and does less damage.

what about the double reflector makes this inescapable? it's not like the stun from two successive reflectors is cumulative..

additionally, I cannot see any characters that this works on. they all recover well before you can shine them again in the opposite direction, especially if they hold down.

anybody just needs to hold shield, sidestep, or roll, or just punch you as you're coming in at them. even if it did work, it would be kind of silly considering the difficulty and lack of damage over time.

[fox user]

okay what ive been thinking about is you run at them at full speed if they dont jump but brace themselves then this wont work but if they jump wich will prolly happen you jump up then go above them and use ur reflector so the fall down then use dair(wich im assuming is down a in the air)and they fly up then u charge up your up a move until they come down and you send them flying it uses a shine but instead of using dair you could fall down beside them and wd then shine and wad thats another infinite cobo or a pretty good k.o. trick if they go along with it :chuckle:

[Cronos_Rainbow]

what about the double reflector makes this inescapable? it's not like the stun from two successive reflectors is cumulative..
The fact that you slide along with the double reflector closes the ground on the opponent with the second reflector leaving them in range for a rep.
additionally, I cannot see any characters that this works on. they all recover well before you can shine them again in the opposite direction, especially if they hold down.
Who said anything about opposite direction? If you mean when you turn you'll probably want to shuffl drill shine to change direction, otherwise it's not so much about damage as it is a set up for a shine spike, wall inf. or to lead them into stage hazards. The damage does come rather fast when done due to its speed.
anybody just needs to hold shield, sidestep, or roll, or just punch you as you're coming in at them. even if it did work, it would be kind of silly considering the difficulty and lack of damage over time.
You can do it fast enough so they have no time....yes it's incredibly hard!

[usea]

The fact that you slide along with the double reflector closes the ground on the opponent with the second reflector leaving them in range for a rep.
actually, since you're in the air when you do the second reflector (just barely off the ground. that's the only way you can do it), you have to wait 2 extra frames before you can WD out of it (2 extra frames to fall to the ground) compared to a normal single grounded reflector. else or you'll mid-air jump instead of from the ground, and your wd will take too long and be too short. what the double reflector does is add on extra damage per rep, but puts you BEHIND compared to doing a single one. you can catch them either way, you just have slightly more leeway with single reflectors, but it does less damage.

Who said anything about opposite direction?
well if you can't keep it going, it's certainly not infinite is it? going a few times across FD before you can't continue certainly isn't infinite. you should instead call this the "4 double reflectors across FD", not an infinite.

You can do it fast enough so they have no time
only if they don't CC it. and even then you cannot reach them in time to turn it around (not that you can turn this around anyway, you slide from the run so you can't shine twice from the other side). if the only thing that keeps it infinite is doing an inverse drill shine at the end, the infinite is really just the inverse, this is just a combo that is worse in every practical way.

any character that falls down from the shine can tech to escape (falco, mewtwo etc), luigi and IC go too far to hit even a second time, they can shield no matter what.

you can get mario, marth, link, cfalcon, etc etc, if they don't CC. well, get them the 4-6 times it goes before you hit the other side.

I might make a video of this because it looks cool.
edit: made a video. only did it 2.5 times, but you don't have room for much more against marth. www.smashinfo.com/dssinf.avi
it's divx fyi. and you can tell I used AR because there is no stale moves. the shine does 5% each time. I just discovered that while making this video. I wonder if you can turn stale moves on in dev mode.

[RockCrock]

Video doesnt work...

[fox user]

no it doesnt

how do i check mail?(sprry bout off topic cant find the mail checker tho)

[Cronos_Rainbow]

usea, I mentioned before you have to drill shine to turn around.

Anyway, the reason I named this an infinite is because no other 'infinite' seems to be either, and as such it's likely to exceptions also.

As for your saying this is just the same as a single shine, it isn't. And no you don't leave the ground if you do it fast enough. YOu'll know you've done it if you've done it fast enough because you'll slide like crazy as if you've already wavedashed. I wouldn't recommend using X or Y to break the reflector unless your either holding the control differently, or you're a mega fast robot as it just isn't fast enough. If you jump out of the second immediately you'll still have a mid-air jump to use also.
any character that falls down from the shine can tech to escape (falco, mewtwo etc),
It works similarly to the first step of Marths forwardB scooping people back up. Otherwise if they do manage a tech your movement will be enough to keep it going, changing direction if need be isn't hard either as say you're coming from the left, they tech right...moving towards them already. Left, and you're already there. If you're fast enough there doesn't seem to be anything they can do except hope you stuff up. I suppose you could see it like the IC dair grab where there is a chance of escape, though it depends on the user goofing it up just as much as the victim escaping, as with the drill shine I suppose.
luigi and IC go too far to hit even a second time, they can shield no matter what.
Hmm...yeah I've had this problem....IC's are hard to get anyway just due to the fact they're two. When Luigi is forced to sheild though he becomes grab bait, so it's not totally a loss I suppose..got me there though. You can however still do it to Marth, though in the PAL version he falls down, and that makes life difficult considering his traction.
only if they don't CC it
CC is a bad thing as you don't fall over. The stun time is easily long enough to stop any counter attack, I've tried it with such moves as Ness dtilt and Fox reflector but they still aren't fast enough.

[usea]

just a note to those who say the video doesn't work..well, it does. many people I know (20+) downloaded it and it works fine. I even just checked it myself. I mentioned that it's divx, you can't watch it unless you have the divx codec. doesn't really matter as it's not a great video anyway.


As for your saying this is just the same as a single shine, it isn't. And no you don't leave the ground if you do it fast enough. YOu'll know you've done it if you've done it fast enough because you'll slide like crazy as if you've already wavedashed.
apparently you didn't watch the video, as I obviously perform the double shine slide wavedash repeat. however, you DO come off of the ground with repeated 'grounded' shines. if you want frame data or a demonstrational video I can provide you with one. TRUST ME. you come off of the ground.

after your first shine you can jump 3 frames later, and then you can shine 3 frames after that because that's how long fox takes before he leaves the ground. you can't shine before you leave the ground, you have to wait until the 4th frame when you're in the air. it's the same as a wavedash, you can't airdodge into the ground until you've already left the ground, even if it doesn't show you leaving the ground with a wd. it does show you leaving the ground with the shine though.

shine, 3 frames, jump, 3 frames, shine, 5 frames (to drift back to the ground), jump, 3 frames, shine, 5 frames, jump, 3 frames, etc etc etc etc. minimum time of 8 frames between each shine after the first one, since you're doing them just above the ground.

it is the same (except 2 frames slower) than a single shine. yes, you slide after the first shine, but all that does is allow you to hit the second one. what happens after the second one is the same as what happens after a single one, since you're not sliding anymore at all. if you want a frame breakdown, with side-by-side video comparison, I'll give it to you. trust me, doing 2 shines doesn't allow you to hit the followup easier. it's actually slightly harder.

either way, I'm tired of arguing when we both agree that's really useless anyway since the inverse drill is better in every way. you're just wrong on a few details that don't matter at all.

if you're interested, I made a video of something mostly similar to this with slight variation and expansion to link on FD. shine across FD back and forth (only shines, no drills) to like 140% then upsmash. however, it only works because I used initial dash cancel (ie DA dash) to shine in the middle of fox's initial dash animation to turn him around.
the filename is shinelink.avi and it's on the direct connect hub.

[the_suicide_fox]

Actually, you forgot to add in attack stun. When you hit with reflector you are both stunned. Fox gets stunned for about 4 frames. If the opponent shields they are also stunned for 4 frames, but the time between reflectors is so little that they have no move that can compete. Most characters could grab you, but they would have to start the grab on the right frame which is near impossible. But yea, and you can't jump out of reflector until the 3rd frame, then it's 2 frames added to land, 3 frames to jump. So it's more like 12 frames between reflectors. But still to do 5 reflectors a second is pretty crazy LOL. And assuming it does average of let say 3 damage each time, and you do it for 10 seconds, thats 150 damage. But there are better ways to rack up damage, but IMO this would look cooler than drillshine.

[Suretman]

After seeing the video, I'll have to say it is very cool looking, but not something that is very useful.

[usea]

the_suicide_fox nobody is talking about a shield. and when I was giving the frame numbers, it was not hitting anybody. just demonstrating that you do in fact come off of the ground when you do multiple shines.

[the_suicide_fox]

I know about the shield, I said that because I'm not sure of the stun from bein hit by reflector, but I know shield stun is 4 frames so its longer than that when the opponet gets hit. And why would you give frame data for an infinite without taking into consideration you are hitting the person? Yes, you go off the ground and all that, I have known about that, but when you have to actually hit someone with this "infinite" then you would consider stun, right? And if you are stunned in the reflector animation for 4 frames, and landing takes 2 frames, that means if you hit the person there's no way you could do your double jump if timed perfectly, so the landing frames won't matter anyway.

[Cronos_Rainbow]

usea, I'll have to take your word on the frame business as I'm no frame expert. Thanks for discussing this in a proper fashion as it's rare to get that from people here these days. I appreciate your input.
either way, I'm tired of arguing when we both agree that's really useless anyway since the inverse drill is better in every way. you're just wrong on a few details that don't matter at all.
I don't know everything, so we can agree on that too :P Yeah I find that the drill shine combo has its weaknesses, especially in PAL. The problem with PAL is that the drillshine combo can be stopped by Peach with a neutral a, isn't an option on Marth due to his falling over and so on. The reason I like this is because it eliminates that and as such makes most every character inf.able in some way. Oh yeah, wall shine-jc-shine combos can be wall-teched in PAL by some characters also.

[usea]

I think it would be nice if they released a SSBM: Reloaded type thing in the US, that had the PAL balance changes (and maybe like, an extra stage and character?). I think pretty much all of the changes are good.

I didn't know peach could slap between drill shine infinite, that's surprising.