*// List of Counter Stages \\*

[Kone]

EDIT -> Im going to be listing the stages INSTEAD of characters =).

I think one of the least talked about aspects of tournament play is counter staging. Obviously, the ability to take your opponent to a stage that benefits your character can ultimately decide a match. However, I don't think this is carried out very well. There are times where people have taken me to stages that made no sense or where I was at a loss to take my opponent.
In this thread im hoping us jiggly players can discuss where to take each member of the cast if we have the ability to do so in a match. Also, which stages to avoid playing a certain char on eg yoshis story vs Marth. Obviously, there are stages that jiggly does well against v all eg Kirby64 but id like us to run through the cast suggesting and arguing as to why a certain stage is good / bad against a certain character. After we have a decent list we can then use a rating system to decide how well / poorly the stage does benefit jiggly v the selected character.
If you have any tips or tricks on stages with puff it would also be a benefit to list / talk about them ^_^ .

*Mute City - All except Peach
*Yoshi's Story - Marth, Link
*Onett - Doc, Fox, Ganondorf and other heavy chars.
*Fountain of Dreams - Fox, Samus, Link, Marth


In other words, suggest stages with reasons as to where a jigglypuff would benefit or have a disadvantage on playing the cast. As the discussion progresses I will edit the above list . Adding stages as they are suggested. If a character is red then playing them on that stage isn't good for jiggs, if it is green then our jiggs gts an advantageand I will chime in with stages myself ^-^ .
If I think suggestions are generally good I will add them to the list. Once we have a decent list we shall then go through it rating each stage matchup with a rating system.

Kone

sorry for edits >_>

[JesusFreak]

Mute City for everyone but Peach, and maybe Falco.

[Kone]

Yes, I agree regarding Mute City. It is one of Jiggly's great stages. I generally do take Peach to Mute City sometimes due to a lack of any other options, are there any better stages to play Peach on ? I like Peachess Castle. And why not falco on mute?

Kone

[Blazin Elf]

Well if brinstar depths wasn't illegal in tourneys than that would be the stage for jigglypuff. She can get around there better than ANY character. It's also easy to KO anyone there as jiggles.

[JesusFreak]

I say maybe not Falco on Mute because one of the reasons it benefits Jiggs is because she coan come thru the bottom of the stage or the side, but Falco's spike hinders that. It's not too big a deal, but it's something to consider.

[Tyrant]

hey jigglypuff would be good in hyrule cause he can get away easily and anywhere.

[Neophos]

Tyrant..

1. Temple is banned in tourneys.
2. Jigglypuff cant run away from everybody, liker Fox can.

Ok, i think that...

nothing -_- i suck too much to really have a opinion on what stages Puff pwns on. i generally pick FD, FoD or Dreamland 64 when im Puff and choose stage, and FD, because i kinda always play there, FoD, i like the stage, it seems good for Puff, and i won some hard matches there, so i own it to the stage^_^ and DL64, because i play Peach there. i think its a good stage for battling Peaches on. however, i dont have played many good Peaches (no offence to anyone)

[Thwick]

Onett- This is the one stage you never want to pick. It's tough to have a good aerial game here, and our horizontal KO ability is negated by the two houses. Vertical KO's with Jiggs are few and far between, and the low ceiling and short edges of the stage mean Jiggs will not recover. Especially not a good stage against a Fox or a Doc IMO, or anyone heavy.

Fountain of Dreams - This one is a Minus vs Samus, Fox, and maybe a slight minus against a Link. Samus and Link are not to be taken here because they can pretty much recover from all the way at the bottom and you don't have much of a chance of stopping them from doing it without dying yourself. I also don't like this stage against Fox because the ceiling seems a little low, and the fact that the moving side platforms nearly always allow the Fox to get off his Up+A on you. They are rarely at the max height where he won't be able to reach you, you're always in range.

Against Ganondorf, I love bringing my buddy to Rainbow Cruise (if it's available, it's usually off) or to Mute City. Without ledges on Mute City, you can get some fast kills by knocking dorf off and then just tapping him back out there over the abyss.

Link- Don't go to Yoshi's Story against him, for much of the same reasons as marth. I really don't like Corneria either, just because it seems tougher to get away from projectiles there. I like going to Battlefield, DK64, Kirby 64, and even Peach's Castle sometimes just because the platforms give you a buffer between the projectiles and other ways of coming in for an uptilt to rest.


That's all for right now, i'll hopefully chime in again.

[Kone]

Onett - Definetly NOT a jiggs level. Easy to kill her vertically and the short sides just aren't meant for her. Throw in the fact that buildings can save your opponents from rests and her lack of ability to kill upwards lends to alot of characters taken advantages here against jiggs. I especially don't like playing ganondorf on this level. His poor recovery is negated and he can survive for ages due to his heaviness and ability to kill jiggs alot quicker than vice versa makes this his level =( .

Corneria - An awful level imo for poor jiggs. Low low ceiling and short sides mean killing her at 60 and less isn't that difficult =( . The fin and irregular land shape doesn't allow for easy woping while a camper can safely lodge themselves under the fin and give her serious problems due to lack of projectiles to dislodge ( ever played a camping happy pika here?!?!) . This is a level that any char with a good upair / upsmash etc will love aka don't play fox here and even falco >_> , pika and Doc's fist of doom rocks jiggs here aswell. This is one of the main levels I ban at the start of a match if I get the option.

Brinstar Depths - This is one of my fave levels to take my opponent on. Easy for Jiggs to navigate and good camping options on the rock below the stage if the level has rotated to right position. Hard for any fast fallers to dislodge you ^-^ . Someone with a lack of experience on this level should lose to a smart - at - home - jiggs. However, don't stay at the top and fight there, you got to keep moving and play to your superior air mobility. The ceiling isn't particularly high and jiggs can be esily killed here by fox / doc etc.

Rainbow Cruise - Ive never used this stage much, not quite sure why. Thwick or anyone else could you give me tips or tricks on how to play or approach this stage with jiggs?!

Peachess Castle - Playing Peach here is the only level I find particlarly helpful to jiggs v her. Blocks and platforms can disrupt her turnips and if one keeps moving between sides ( if in the lead) then it is easy to pick Peach of as she tries to give chase over the main tower as her mobility and speed in the air is not as good as yours ^-^.

Comments?

Kone

[Thwick]

Kone, here's my reasoning on Rainbow Cruise: It's set up very well for a jiggs aerial game, except for a bit in the beginning and for a slight section on the top of the stage. The section where you go upwards with the carpets and stuff can lead to trouble for other characters, especially when you figure that they won't have the kind of air game/manueverability that you do. If you are able to get at least a hit or two in the air, it could easily disrupt them enough so they cannot make it onto a safe ledge. Or if they are trying to evade you enough and are wary of getting hit, they may miss making a ledge completely. A few things to be wary of, when the stage moves up, watch getting stuck being backed up against the left side, an unlucky hit could knock you out, since the edge of stage line is really close. If you can keep them backed up and keep on the b-airs, you have a really good chance of knocking them out. On the ship, float around on either end. I like the right side, even though there is less horizontal room to come back. On the top, the ceiling is low but the platforms allow you great maneuverability and I still feel strong up there, even against a fox. Another thing to be careful is that some platforms along the top cannot be dropped through. My friends and I played a 99 stock match on this one day and feel in love. I like it because not a lot of people play it enough to know the patterns and such, but it's usually a banned stage because it moves. Try it out Kone and see what you think.

[David Kirk]

I could make a real list later, but I am at school and just want to reply to Jesus Freak's comment about not playing Falco on Mute City.

First off, WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DO NOT PLAY FALCO ON MUTE CITY!?

With no constant platforms and the majority of the match being played on a flat platform (Up throw/Up air) not only do you get the advantage with getting them up for Rest, but air mobility becomes easier not only to move, but to also do it while avoiding them.

Because of the lack of platforms, and the way that Falco plays, it is easier to avoid combos because you stay in the air for so long and after Reflector/Up smash/Up tilt/Down tilt/anything they have to come all the way back down to the ground to jump and attack again, not just hit a platform and be right back at you.

Jigglypuff's edge guarding is insanely good. A stage where they have to come about the edge, or lack there of, just to survive is golden, especially since Jigglypuff does not need edges to recover. Look at how limited Falco is off the edge, and the time, either starting or ending lag that he has after Up B or Over B. You get Falco close to the edge and once back kick can just mean easy, easy edge guarding on that stage. Plus you can kick him out of either one anywhere on, or below, the stage.

Yes Falco can spike you while you recover, but so can Marth, Ganondorf, and just about every character has at least some kind of Meteor attack. If you cannot Meteor Cancel the attack, chances are that you will hit the track and come back up. You are over the track more than not.

Sure there is more about playing Falco on Mute City (fast fallers on the track, free forward smash/back kick/Rest everytime they recover, harder for them to combo you/avoid you, especially while avoiding cars, etc...). Either way, Mute City against Falco is golden.

[pictish freak]

Let's see... stages where Pika counters Jiggs more than normal:

First up, as Kone touched upon, Pika is pretty horrible versus Jiggs on Corneria, due to the fine and jolt spamming... as well as ultra low up smash kills on the fin ^^

Next up, I'd say FoD could be a bad stage for Pika versus Jiggs. Relatively low ceiling, quite a lot of room for Pika to mix up his recovery (including the option to go for the edge, teh ground or 2 different platforms at times...). I haven't really tried this out, but the stage seems a bad shape for jiggs chances.

Pika is certainly horrible on Onnet, since he's one of those characters with the good up wards kills.. but then it's not Pika specific.

Meh, these are the stages that are especially bad, but Pika generally counters Jiggs anyway. The best stage for Jiggs/Pika is prolly Kirbs64.

That's all I got for now...

[Qwester]

Originally posted by JesusFreak
I say maybe not Falco on Mute because one of the reasons it benefits Jiggs is because she coan come thru the bottom of the stage or the side, but Falco's spike hinders that. It's not too big a deal, but it's something to consider.
By that reasoning... anyone with a spike would have the advantage over Jiggs. That includes Falco, Marth(ntsc), Ganon and Fox. Which just isn't true. Jiggs can live forever on mute with it's high ceilings, wide blast zones and lack of ledges for edge guarding against people with more laggy recovery. To get around being spiked, Jiggs should just avoid it and recover high(possible air dodge), as she does on any other stage when in danger of being hit, let alone spiked

[JesusFreak]

FINE! I MADE A STUPID COMMENT! SUE ME AND TAKE AWAY MY MBR MEMBERSHIP! THEN GO CRY ME A RIVER!!!

[/rant]

[David Kirk]

Originally posted by JesusFreak
FINE! I MADE A STUPID COMMENT! SUE ME AND TAKE AWAY MY MBR MEMBERSHIP! THEN GO CRY ME A RIVER!!!

[/rant]

PWN3D

[KishPrime]

I still think Story is a great Peach counter for the reasons I said in another thread that I don't have time to find. Basically it's easier for Jiggly to move Peach off the side than Peach can to Jiggly. I'd have to fight Onett as a good Ganon counter, in fact I don't have a clue where to fight Ganon. Onett isn't it though, uairs and stomps and the abundance of platforms is a great disadvantage to Jiggly against Ganon.

EDIT: I just noticed, Onett as a counter against Fox? 0.o With the low ceiling and the SAS killed by buildings? That is just wrong. First of all, Fox counters Jiggly in every way other than the Space Animal Slayer. Why would you choose a level where the SAS is not as good? I dunno where Onett came from, but Fox's vertical game is mad good, and Onett is all vertical. Just had to correct that...

[Thwick]

Kish, the part about Onett in the first post means that it is a bad place to take Fox, G-dorf, etc. The ones listed in Red are negatives, the ones in green are positives.

[TiRune]

Generally big stages are always in the favour of jiggly. FD and Kirby 64 for example are great jiggly stages (exept mayb against other floaty chars, then the matchup would be even). In dutch tournaments you can use brinstar depths, but it's really not broken with jiggly, there's hardly any space to land on after jumping often so chars like marth and sheik pwn her completely there (trust me, I've used that level with jiggly in tournaments -_-')

btw, big blue is nice also :P

[Exenwyr]

Keep in mind these are only my opinions. don't flame me if you disagree, This is just what works with my strategy as teh puff.


Dr Mario: uneven terrain levels (except Onett). His pills stun, so changing the trajectory can throw some players off... plus, more opportunities to tech off hills, and more of an air battle, where jiggly has lots of precedence (Yoshi's Island comes to mind...)

Mario: Levels with holes. Edge-guarding is easy enough, plus the more holes, the more Mario has to jump. the more he has to jump, the more you can catch him in the air. plus, most levels with holes also have platforms to take advantge of. (Fourside is nice)

Luigi: Short Side levels. Luigi had a great horizontal recovery, so the easier it is to knock him out to the sides the better. Again, levels with holes would be nice (Subcon for example)

Bowser: Moving/Hazard levels. He has a hard enough time jumping around, so might as well take advantage of it. Also, knocking him onto the road or into lava is good for a fair amount of damage, as well as it sets up for air combos (Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Mute)

Peach: wall or uneven terrain levels: I suck against peach so this is the only real way i know to help... The more walls, the more difference in terrain, the less effective turnip spamming is. An added bonus to some of these levels are holes, so it's always possible to trick her into falling in one... (Fourside, Yoshi's Island)

Yoshi: long, levels, few platforms. Yoshi may be able to egg spam, but its fairly easy to dodge as the puff. is is much easier to take yoshi in the air, so platforms would just get in the way. (Subcon, FD, DK River)

[ugh... getting lazy...]

Falcon: small platforms, high ceilings. Many of falcon's moves need lots of room. giving him small places to land makes things difficult and forces him into your grabbing range. Also, high ceilings help out againsth im since he has lots of moves that knock you high into the air. (Battlefield, FoD... etc)

Ganondorf: (Pretty much the same as falcon, maybe some levels with uneven terrain to make it easier to avoid the knee...)

Falco: Anything without lots of platforms or short ceilings. Otherwise, you should have an okay time. (FD, Mute, etc...)

Fox: (same as above)

Ness: Holes, Platforms. Ness isn't the greatest up-smasher, so platforms aren't a worry, and They also get in the way of his projectiles. Holes are certain doom for ness if he's not careful as well. (Fourside, FoD... lots -o- stuff)

Ice Climbers: hazard/moving. The hasards as well as moving stages make it very difficult for the pair to stay beside each other. separate, and destroy. (Rainbow cruise, Mute, Brinstar)

Kirby: flat, few platforms. Kirby has very limited attacking range, plus since he's an air-character like jigglypuff, it shouldn't be too hard to pull him into an air battle. (FD, Subcon)

Samus: small levels. The shorte the sides, the better. YOu may be easily KOed from sides, but as easy as samus can come back, it's best to risk it. Also, the smaller the stage, the less chance samus has to get away to projectile-spam, plus the super-wave dash isn't nearly as helpful. If it doesn't have grapple points all the way to the bottom of stage, that's excellent. (Yoshi's story, battlefield maybe...)

Zelda: honestly, no idea. probably short levels would be best as well, but i've never really played a zelda-only person with jiggly. (???)

Shiek: hazards (but not moving), uneven terrain. Shiek is one of the few characters i'd actually rather not draw into an air battle. (i can be in air as long as she stays on ground...) which is why i eliminated moving courses here. The hazards are much more difficult to escape as shiek, since she's sort of a fast-faller herself. also, the uneven terrain makes some of her tilt-combos tougher, and you dont have to worry about needles as much. (Brinstar, Hyrule, Yoshi's Island...)

Link: platforms, large levels. Link has many strong killing moves, so it's best to pick the bigger stages in case you make a mistake. also, the platforms can make link's life much more difficult by blocking his projectiles. (Kirby 64, Yoshi 64, Hyrule...)

Young Link: platforms, high ceilings. Young link has much fewer horizontal kill moves, so it's best to watch out for his air attacks which mainly launch upwards. again, platforms help block projectiles. also, small levels make it difficult for him to get opportunities to use his projectiles. (Mute City, Battlefield...)

Pichu: Wall levels. The more walls and platforms, the more pichu will be enticed to move electric moves, which are usually easy to dodge. an easy 20-30 damage can com from pichu himself. also, the walls make pichu easier to knock around and combo because he'll bounce back at lower damage (Fourside, Peach's Castle)

Pikachu: Big levels. Pikachu has a pretty nice set of smashes. it's not too difficult to edgeguard a pikachu, so if pikachu can make it back due to the level size, he still has to get ON the level. It's better to have less platforms, because that means pikachu can't thunderbolt with less lag. (FD, DK river...)

Jigglypuff: Onett. ;)

Mewtwo: walls/uneven terrain. Mewtwo is very floaty, thus getting him into the air isn't too difficult. Walls and terrain force him to jump as well. Plus, since Mewtwo has some pretty strong thows, there's always the chance to tech off a wall, floor, or ceiling. (Hyrule, Fourside, Great Bay, Rainbow Cruise...)

Mr. Game & Watch: walls/uneven terrain. Pretty much the same as mewtwo in level choices. He has strong smashes, strong throws, and as jigglypuff, you dont really need to worry about his b-moves too much, so you don't need any protection of platforms. Again, Teching is good. (See above... minus Great Bay)

Marth: Hazards, Moving. Long reach, long range... *shudder* Best to let this guy work himself into trouble, which is easily done on moving or hazard stages because of his up-b. you can certainly out-manuver him in the air on those tricky stages, so he's got to watch out for the stage and you. (brinstar, Rainbow cruise...)

Roy: Same as Marth, Maybe add some high ceilings in there as well. He's a bit stronger, but a bit slower. The speed factor will help you a lot, especially in the same type of levels. (See above)




And that's what I think. Agree, Dissagree...whatever. I just thought I'd go through and try to get something down. I would like to know what you think, but no flaming, please. If you disagree, why, and what do you think would be better for certain characters? (I'll admit I haven't played much against all of these characters with humans behind them, so some of my info might be a bit off)