Link = Newb Charachter?

[LoTr_FrEaK]

I disagree, my friend doesn't.

[Discuss]

[disturbedperson]

well, the only reason he is considered a newb character is because newbs tend to pick him first before trying anyone else. it's only because he's so popular. it's not because he's a good choice for newbs to start with(IMO he actually is....) but because of his popularity.

[EdreesesPieces]

A lot of people new to the game play as him yes, but he's not a newb character meaning you can't be really good with him.

[LoTr_FrEaK]

Yeah, It's probably because I was owning my m8, with Link & Doc earlier on tonight.. He thinks this combo is cheap:

Grab Down + Up B + Boomerang + Bomb & Jump in a sexy kick. If done properley it does around 40 - 50 % He also thinks Links foward Smash, is cheap.. &.. he thinks Docs Pills are cheap ? WHAT can I do? >.>

[That Diablos Guy]

Link isn't a newb character, he's a overrated by newbs character. Same with Roy. :p

[LoTr_FrEaK]

Hes not overrated.

[Lord HDL]

Many people (mostly new people) overrate Link but don’t realize how involved he is. Granted, while many characters may be difficult to master, Link is one of the most difficult because the unique way his projectiles and Hookshot work make him a lot more involved than almost every character in the game. Out of 10 random Link players, how many would be able to beat or at least come close to someone like me, Kubuu, or Germ? If you take someone like Sheik, though, many people have mastered her at such a high level, and Link and Sheik are both played by numerous people worldwide. Besides how involved he is with his projectiles, Link generally cannot make up for mistakes that easily with most of his moves such as a Sheik or Fox can, which make him even more involved. I won’t hesitate in saying that most new people do overrate Link, and then when they play with him against their friends that use Fox they say he sucks. It’s really because of the above factors I mentioned plus some others. Now that you think about it, that may just be the reason there are so few really good Link players in the first place...

[disturbedperson]

I'm assuming most people don't play Link or Young Link as much because of the many characters that simply slaughter Young/Link quite easily(IE: Sheik, Fox, Marth(Sheik and Fox moreso)). It is quite hard to recover after making a mistake(such as a missed l-cancel or projectile or you simply get hit in general>_>) and since most players who choose Link in the first place end up facing a character that outruns them priority and speed-wise they just give up with Link right away... Lord knows I did when I played as Link on SSB vs Fox and such. Then i found Falcon to be really good>_>

[DrumStickz]

Link certainly isn't a newbie character. Being able to use him in a high level of play requires knowledge of all the technicals skills. Shffling is mandatory to keep up his speed as well as mind games with wavedashes. What I'm saying is that it's not easy to pick up Link in a higher level of play. There are some characters that are easier to pick up in a high level of play than others. The ones that are easier to pick up are what I call the "newbie characters" (which doesn't neccessarilly mean bad.)

[Lord HDL]

Originally posted by DrumStickz
Link certainly isn't a newbie character. Being able to use him in a high level of play requires knowledge of all the technicals skills. Shffling is mandatory to keep up his speed as well as mind games with wavedashes. What I'm saying is that it's not easy to pick up Link in a higher level of play. There are some characters that are easier to pick up in a high level of play than others. The ones that are easier to pick up are what I call the "newbie characters" (which doesn't neccessarilly mean bad.)

That’s why there are so few Link players that have truly mastered him, and mastering him is such an accomplishment that anyone who does should get an award. It’s easy to pick up Fox and start beating people with some skills and knowledge here and there, but with Link, you really need to know your stuff more so than most characters in the game. Like DrumStickz said, I would find the more commonly picked characters (you know which ones I mean) to be the newb characters. Link is the exact opposite.

[MookieRah]

I would find the more commonly picked characters (you know which ones I mean) to be the newb characters. Link is the exact opposite.

True that, true that. Anyone who takes Link into a tourny and places well with him is someone whom I would have a lot more respect for, as opposed to a Marth or a Sheik.

[Rune]

That’s why there are so few Link players that have truly mastered him, and mastering him is such an accomplishment that anyone who does should get an award. It’s easy to pick up Fox and start beating people with some skills and knowledge here and there, but with Link, you really need to know your stuff more so than most characters in the game.

True, but try mastering Fox.. that's not easy at all.
Same goes for Marth, Falco and so on (not for Sheik imho ;P).

Newb chars would be chars that can be OK w/o skill, so I'd say people like Marth, Sheik, Link, Roy, Yoshi, Pika.. or something like that. Chars with abusable smash and/or B attacks.

Learn to do Marth's forward smash and you'll prolly own most newb. Same goes for Sheik's down smash, Link's up-B, Roy's forward smash, Yoshi's smashes, Pika's smashes and thunder and such..
But, this means in no way that these chars don't require skill to use at higher levels of play. To really master any char 'cept for maybe Sheik is hard as ****.. Sheik would be the only char with no real weaknesses you need to learn to live with.

[Lord HDL]

Originally posted by Rune666
True, but try mastering Fox.. that's not easy at all.
Same goes for Marth, Falco and so on (not for Sheik imho ;P).

Newb chars would be chars that can be OK w/o skill, so I'd say people like Marth, Sheik, Link, Roy, Yoshi, Pika.. or something like that. Chars with abusable smash and/or B attacks.

Learn to do Marth's forward smash and you'll prolly own most newb. Same goes for Sheik's down smash, Link's up-B, Roy's forward smash, Yoshi's smashes, Pika's smashes and thunder and such..
But, this means in no way that these chars don't require skill to use at higher levels of play. To really master any char 'cept for maybe Sheik is hard as ****.. Sheik would be the only char with no real weaknesses you need to learn to live with.

I have mastered Fox, AND Marth. Marth is my second and Fox is my third, and in a match between my Fox VS. my Link, my Fox would most likely eat my Link. Trust me, being the competitive player I am and also a master of both sides (Link and Fox) it’s safe to say that mastering Link is at least 10x harder than mastering Fox. Mastering almost any character to become truly competitive with them is difficult (Sheik to a certain extent...), but Link is most likely the hardest one, though the fact that other characters have awkward mobility and attacks may lead people to believe otherwise. I’ve been playing with him since the game came out, and I’m only now developing better anti-Fox tactics with him. I’m going to stop saying the word "mastering" now, lol.

And this part really caught my eye:

Newb chars would be chars that can be OK w/o skill, so I'd say people like Marth, Sheik, Link, Roy, Yoshi, Pika.. or something like that. Chars with abusable smash and/or B attacks.

In response, I refer to one of my statements above:

Mastering almost any character to become truly competitive with them is difficult (Sheik to a certain extent...), but Link is most likely the hardest one, though the fact that other characters have awkward mobility and attacks may lead people to believe otherwise.

[disturbedperson]

Hey, LordHDL, could you PM me some tips against the higher tier characters such as Fox and Sheik and such for Young Link? or point me in the direction of someone that knows the advanced tactics for other characters? I don't know them and i'm writing a Young Link guide for Gamefaqs, and without knowing the advanced tactics for every other character it's gonna be hard to write counter-tactics for those particular characters. I'm pretty sure someone like you could help me out.

or you could just make a new topic. i dunno. any way to get the info to me would be of immense help. thank you.

[Lord HDL]

I actually made a thread a while back discussing some anti-Fox tips and strategies called Anti-Character Strategies (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38317&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

Lately I’ve been developing some new tactics against Fox and I can actually match his speed at times in order to protect myself better (speed but not insane like Fox’s speed). I’ll be posting some of the things I’ve developed later, but for now you can check out the topic and see if it helps you.

[disturbedperson]

thanks. i'll look into that.

[Rune]

Your a Fox master now? Why haven't I heard of your Fox rampaging thru tourneys then? With mastering I mean really being like among the top 10 best players with a certain char.
I'll believe you're a Link "master" in an instant, but I don't think you can really say if Fox is harder to play if your not a well known Fox player..
On the other hand I'm not totally aware of who won which tourney and why so you might be a great Fox after all.. if so, ignore this post ;]

Anyway, Fox has practicaly no limit to how fast he can be and how many reflectors you can fit in between his moves.. the only limit is the player.. so yes, I think perfecting something with that much potential is harder then perfecting Link who has, simply put, less potential then Fox.

As for the Link being a newB char.. I didn't mean that in a negative way at all. I'm just saying it's not a bad idea for newbs to pick Link. You'll rape quite a few other newbs with just his up-B and some random smashes.

[Lord HDL]

I did not just now become good with Fox, I’ve been playing with him as long as the game has been out, and maybe the reason I’m not so well-known is because I’ve only been to one tournament. I’m positive that Link is much more difficult, because I understand both sides of the story. Not that you don’t, but for me to beat a Link player like Kubuu lacking more than a year of practice? I would say I know my stuff with Link, and I play Fox just as frequently as Link. People know I’m good with Link, yes, but pretty much no one knows how I play with my other characters. Actually, no one even knows which characters I play with besides the ones I just mentioned.

I would go to tournaments more often but, you know, I’m kind of stuck here in Puerto Rico going to my university and no money for flights, so...yea....

[Rune]

That's a shame.. I've got money and I tend to skip school cuz I'll catch up anyway ^^"

That's why I flew from the Netherlands (Europe) to Cali for TG6.

Anyway, I'm not doubting your knowlage of the game, but you shouldn't underestimate mine either.. I came in 25th at TG out of 118 contenders and I beat GERM (known to be one of the greatest Link players) along the way, so it's not like I don't understand Link.. let alone the game.

I play Marth as my main followed by people like Fox, Falco, Falcon and Roy (and some Sheik, but who doesn't).

I have tried Link in the past when I heard some people where owning with him and I can't say I found him too hard to pick up.. ok, I didn't go all the way with him and I've never played him in any of the 15 (or so) tourneys I've been to, so I must admit I'm not fully aware of how hard it is to play Link. But I wouldn't call myself ignorant either.

As for Fox, I know he's hard to play since I play him quite a bit.. and he's hard to play all reflector happy, shorthoppy and Uair abusing at top speed.

[Lord HDL]

Skip school? lol, by school I’m assuming post-secondary is that right? Link is pretty easy to pick up, as opposed to someone like Mewtwo or Yoshi, but I can assure you that mastering is a completely different ball game. I don’t underestimate people’s knowledge, especially those in the MBR that have proved otherwise just to get in (except for those lucky breaks, *glares at McFox* lol). Just look at how long it’s been since I had regular practice with a skilled person and then all of a sudden I go to an NYC tournament and people are say I’m probably the best Link? What the? lol.

Seems we’re clear on things and opinions are opinions, so let’s say someone gets as good with Link and Fox as me, they might turn around and say Fox is harder to master which is their opinion. If that were the case though, I’d highly doubt it because of the level of effort and..."faith" you need to get that good with Link, but again that’s just my opinion.

And just a side note in general: most people don’t know how difficult it is to use Link in a tournament and actually win because once it’s a tournament match, anything could happen, the better player could wind up losing because of tension or a bad match. I experienced this when playing Chad Evans, who uses Peach. He’s a good Peach because he got third at NYC V Games, Wes was 1st, Philly was 2nd, and Rafa was 4th. I had a bad match in Kongo Jungle, a stage I normally play excellent on with Link, but the stage hazards killed me three times and he only killed me twice, and I still got him to 1 stock; it was still a very close match even though I had some bad falls, and when you make mistakes with Link it’s difficult to make up for them as opposed to some of the higher tier characters, where you can make a mistake in a tournament match and quickly recover so that no or little harm is done. By the way I’ve been analyzing the Link VS. Fox match-up and I feel that Link has a better chance against good Fox players than most people think, but only if you’re truly excellent with Link. Chu getting 3rd with Ice Climbers and Captain Jack 2nd with Doc made me look over the Fox issue more closely.

[DrumStickz]

Just look at how long it’s been since I had regular practice with a skilled person and then all of a sudden I go to an NYC tournament and people are say I’m probably the best Link? What the? lol.

Hehe really eh? I guess I haven't played nearly enough good Link players. I was able to play a few good ones at TG6 but I have yet to play you (I'm probably doomed to lose though). As for the best Link. . .meh. . . .I'm still locked on to GERM or Kubuu.

[Lord HDL]

Right now I’d say Kubuu is the best Link, and I don’t vouch for myself because I just haven’t had enough experience to contend with other people the way I’d like to (living in PR has a lot of setbacks). I’m only a step behind and hopefully a tournament away...

[Blind]

I'd personally say that you can't genuinely compare mastering Link and mastering Fox, because the term "master" applies in slightly different ways to them.

With Link, you have to play perfectly. it's not enough to pull off short hops effectively, or L-Cancelling all the time. They're important, but you have to _read_ your opponent. For the most part, if you make a single mistake, you will be fighting an uphill battle just to catch up again, let alone win. He has strengths that make him an effective combatant against many characters, but if you don't know how to utilize them perfectly, you will eat a lot of losses.
Fox, on the other hand, has stats that make the above things less true about him than they are about Link. Sure, you can't run around making mistakes all the time, but he's fast and capable of insane comboes and low % shine spikes that will simply catapult him back in the lead. To do those, however, you need absolute technical mastery, something Link does not require nearly to the same degree. Fox is harder to control; Link is harder to understand.

With all that in mind, calling Link a newb character is ridiculous. Sure, new players use him all the time because he's popular, but that doesn't reflect on his playing style. He needs ultimate calculation and precision to be used effectively against higher-ranked characters. Messing up once costs you stocks.

Lord HDL, you don't happen to have any videos of yourself in a game with you at the top of your form do you? I sure would appreciate a chance to see you in action since you say you're one of the best Links out there. I'm always fond of learning :P

[Mr.C]

All i have to say is DHL is very much right indeed,

1. yes a noob can pick up link and spam up-b and throw weapons, link is fairly easy to pick up , but to master and do good to all other chars is very hard.

2. link is a perfect weight to get owned by pretty much any combo and almost every char will do good against him that is why it is hard to master him

And HonorBound, is absolutly right about everything :D

[Lord HDL]

HonorBound, I don’t. I live in PR and don’t have anyone skilled to play nor do I have any camcorders or special video cards. And forget about what I say about my Link, since my word is "apparently" not enough to trust for some people. I would rather no one else lie about me (not saying anything about you, just trying to prevent any more unnecessary problems). I hope you understand.

And yea what you say about Link and Fox is right. Fox needs faster and better technical work while Link needs serious comprehension. Technical skill can be gained with practice, but understanding the character to such an extent takes much more dedication and training. That’s why I personally like Link a lot better.

[The GERM]

You know what I effing hate? Players *cough*HDL*cough* who claim to be a really good Link player, but just brag about them beating other Links. I mean, I might be wrong, but I think they're other characters in smash right? In one post, I remember HDL specifically saying that Link always loses to Fox, or his does anyway, and if he has to face a Fox in a tournament, he'd prolly switch to Marth or try to match it with his Fox. Sorry HDL, but if you even want to be the least bit known, which I know you're dying for, you have to do a lot better than playing a few Link dittos here and there. Maybe Link dittos are one of your few strengths, but that doesn't mean sh** when it comes to being the best, you have to realize this.

On another note, I'm sick of hearing you blabbering on about you beating Kubuu but never mentioning you being raped by 3 stock from Kubuu. And you always say, "I haven't had competion in a whole year" *wa wa wa* cry me a river, nobody gives a sh** man, you have more excuses than OJ, you need to accept your losses like a man, and go home and practice some more.

Rune: what's up man? It was crazy fun playing you at TG man. It was actually more fun playing you the night before singles than in the actuall tourney, or was it teams? You got sooo close to beating CJ man, I don't think he was sandbagging. Anyway, those matches at the actuall tournament were pretty close man, I'm sure you didn't get any sleep the night before either, but you were the better player that day. Oh wellz, you win some you lose some eh? I shouldn't have said you can counterpick DK 64 when you asked me, lol. I hope we meet again soon, if there's another big tourny here in Cali, now since MLG is practically over.

Drumstickz: you went to TG6? who were you? did I ever play you? It's a good thing you live kinda near me, I still need to talk to you on AIM to see when we can play.

[Lord HDL]

Why are you harassing me? Seriously, this was already taken care of and you obviously didn’t read my "Please Read" thread, so stop getting involved and causing more problems that no one wants when you’re not even up to date. This is Link discussion and not how much you want to assault me. It doesn’t matter what you’re opinion of me is, don’t go attacking me publicly just because you don’t like me. No matter what you say or think it’s not going to change how I play, and opinions don’t make fact, so jump off already, please.

Several people have IMed me already about this and have learned the truth directly, so I thank those who are being more mature and considerate about this. And to add something useful to this, I’d like to point out that even though Link may have a suitable weight for everyone in the game, learning to DI correctly against certain characters (especially throws) will reduce the weakness, so it won’t really be all that bad.

[Kubuu]

*Raises hand*I just want to play the game...
In all honesty though, all this beastin about who's the best or even better Link is all rubbish, cause it won't mean sheeyt if you hop into a tourney and get snuffed out by players using the higher rated characters. Everyone's time would be better spent trying to work on their game as opposed to coming on here and OD'ing about who's on top rung. The way I see it, the players that post the least are out there being ballers and trying to get that Link game up. On topic, I think any character can be a noob character. The only reason Link is seen the most as a noob character is because people OD'ed with his spin attack when this game hit the streets. All the characters have things that make them easily attractive to noobs, but because Link is the baller he is, people are just naturally attracted to him. Even before people started seeing what the spin attack could do, people were all over him. I think thats mainly due to the fact that aside from the Mario Bros., no one has as many solid games as Link. In the end though, it takes mad hard work to be a baller with Link. The only thing that I will give people in terms of Link being a noob character, is that MAYBE, during the first half of the year that smash came out, Link MIGHT have been a noobish character, but back then, everyone was stuck on the B button, except for people that hit up the N64 smash from way back. All the smash virgins came down on that B button hard, cause they didn't know what else to do. At this point in time with smash, there is no way, and in fact, there is a NEGATIVE chance, that Link can be considered a noob character. To call Link a noob character these days, would imply that a noob user could pick up Link, and do decently against other opponents who are not Link. Anyone who plays the game today knows this isnt the case. To even think about using Link these, you have to be ready to use just him for like year straight. And that's WITH all of these new tactics and strats being out in the open. Original gangstas like me (you all know who you are), who have been using just Link since the japanese version of the N64 smash came, had to figure the Hero out from the Master Sword pedestal up. This being said, this is my post for the year:D Anyone who wants to find me, can play me when I hold my Hyrule Invitational in the Winter:chuckle: Get off the **** boards and go play the **** game. B i t c h e s

[Mr.C]

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH KUBUU :D

[Zarelid]

Originally posted by Rune666
That's a shame.. I've got money and I tend to skip school cuz I'll catch up anyway ^^"

That's why I flew from the Netherlands (Europe) to Cali for TG6.

Anyway, I'm not doubting your knowlage of the game, but you shouldn't underestimate mine either.. I came in 25th at TG out of 118 contenders and I beat GERM (known to be one of the greatest Link players) along the way, so it's not like I don't understand Link.. let alone the game.

I play Marth as my main followed by people like Fox, Falco, Falcon and Roy (and some Sheik, but who doesn't).

I have tried Link in the past when I heard some people where owning with him and I can't say I found him too hard to pick up.. ok, I didn't go all the way with him and I've never played him in any of the 15 (or so) tourneys I've been to, so I must admit I'm not fully aware of how hard it is to play Link. But I wouldn't call myself ignorant either.

As for Fox, I know he's hard to play since I play him quite a bit.. and he's hard to play all reflector happy, shorthoppy and Uair abusing at top speed.
well it's hard to say in "Mastering" a character Fox his short hop is very difficult at first to do and controlling him and his speed is also very difficult doing all his trick shine wave dash are very hard to do at first where whats hard to do with Link at first nothing IMO but fighting other people with Link is something to master it's very hard fighting Fox with Link Sheik with Link and Falcos etc.. were as with Fox figthing any character is ok once mastered Fox stands a chance agaisnt everyone even Sheik, were as playing a Sheikw ith Link is hard even for a master Link, Sheiks got the BS chain grab that no matter how good you are Link can't beat it, so fighting a Fox with Link is much hard and takes more time to master then fox on fox or any other character.

[Zarelid]

wtf laaaag?

[Zarelid]

I love lag =/

[MookieRah]

Anyone who wants to find me, can play me when I hold my Hyrule Invitational in the Winter Get off the **** boards and go play the **** game. B i t c h e s

Awesome. Do you have any more info on this?? Due to my location (Mississippi) I have to plan all of the tournies I attend months and months in advance.

[Exenwyr]

I've been a link player since i first got the game. I'm probably nowhere near as good as most of the people on this board, but i do know a thing or two.

I personally started with link when I got SSB for n64. He was a fun character to play, buyt after playing skilled individuals, i found a number of his skills lacking (mainly his poor recovery ability with his up-b) Then I switched to pikachu...

When i found out that SSB:M was coming out, I immediately reserved it, and began 'training' with link again.

I mainly picked link because of some sentimental stuff with my dad, which is why LOZ is my favorite series, but once again, I discovered link had a few undeniable disadvantages. I will admit this though, If you define a character that is good for noobs as one that you can pick up and go through normal mode first time playing, then yeah. Link would fall into that category. Excellent power, good recovery, moderate weight... He's excellent against -computers- when you start out.

However, the more you play SSB:M, and the more you find others who play, you realize that that won't save you from real humans. You have to find quite a few tricks to survive, and mistakes almost always lead to an extra 20% damage in the least. he has a slow recover, delays before almost all of his attacks, and unless you are getting really good, it's hard to link up combos (no pun intended). By this time, most people switch to one of link's nemesis, such as fox, sheik, or maybe peach. If you really want to get good with link, you have to be determined.

really, if you want to be good with anyone, you have to be determined... but link is probably one of the hardest. My biggest flaw is i find myself doing the same things over and over (whether it helps or harms me in the battle), and habits are one of the more dangerous things that can make mastery difficult. with fast characters, there are such a wide amount of possibilites becasue combos can link up so easily. with link, where almost all moves require precise timing (to counteract the delay) combos are much fewer and harder to come by. Link players usually have to know much more than just link's abilities, but the opponent as well. such does not usually have to be said with the fast characters.

And I'm probably going to be totally smashed by somone else who posts after me, proving everything I said was wrong, so i'm just gonna shy away and hide in the corner...

[Ice Rabbit]

Newbs really only like him because they like the Zelda series, or think "he looks cool". Well, he is rather good in low levels of play, but the newbs don't know what they are talking about and sometimes get a bit stubborn, which results in them turning into n00bs. Sad story.

[Garde]

Originally posted by Kubuu
*Raises hand*I just want to play the game...
In all honesty though, all this beastin about who's the best or even better Link is all rubbish, cause it won't mean sheeyt if you hop into a tourney and get snuffed out by players using the higher rated characters. Everyone's time would be better spent trying to work on their game as opposed to coming on here and OD'ing about who's on top rung. The way I see it, the players that post the least are out there being ballers and trying to get that Link game up. On topic, I think any character can be a noob character. The only reason Link is seen the most as a noob character is because people OD'ed with his spin attack when this game hit the streets. All the characters have things that make them easily attractive to noobs, but because Link is the baller he is, people are just naturally attracted to him. Even before people started seeing what the spin attack could do, people were all over him. I think thats mainly due to the fact that aside from the Mario Bros., no one has as many solid games as Link. In the end though, it takes mad hard work to be a baller with Link. The only thing that I will give people in terms of Link being a noob character, is that MAYBE, during the first half of the year that smash came out, Link MIGHT have been a noobish character, but back then, everyone was stuck on the B button, except for people that hit up the N64 smash from way back. All the smash virgins came down on that B button hard, cause they didn't know what else to do. At this point in time with smash, there is no way, and in fact, there is a NEGATIVE chance, that Link can be considered a noob character. To call Link a noob character these days, would imply that a noob user could pick up Link, and do decently against other opponents who are not Link. Anyone who plays the game today knows this isnt the case. To even think about using Link these, you have to be ready to use just him for like year straight. And that's WITH all of these new tactics and strats being out in the open. Original gangstas like me (you all know who you are), who have been using just Link since the japanese version of the N64 smash came, had to figure the Hero out from the Master Sword pedestal up. This being said, this is my post for the year:D Anyone who wants to find me, can play me when I hold my Hyrule Invitational in the Winter:chuckle: Get off the **** boards and go play the **** game. B i t c h e s

This is why you rock, Kubuu. I'll see if I can make it, but I'll have to save up some money and talk to you on AIM about this...

[Tiller420]

Yeah people like to use him cause lots of people play that game and thinks hes bad ***. And hes not a newb char he is very powerful and has many projectiles which is useful. only chars have 3 projectiles only 2. Of course link and young link unless your going to count peach and vodoo vegies and bombs light sabers and small eyed vegies.

[Tiller420]

One more thing people that say they hate the lag can learn to L-cancel :S

cory: RAAAARRRR! DON'T DOUBLE POST! RARR!