Marth's throws overrated?

[SynikaL]

I felt like I needed a reason to get flamed so I made this topic....

....But yeah, you read the title right.

After doing alot of thinking, I've come to the conclusion that Marth's throws are seriously overrated.

Now I don't want to downplay the usefulness of his grab, as it a very integral part of his game, but people go on about Marth's throws as if they were concieved by God himself.

Why?

Because of his throw range?

Yeah, his throw range surely is the stuff of greatness isn't it? It assures you you'll get in quite a few grabs along with some chip damage numerous times during any given match.

But what about his actual throws?

What exactly can they do for Marth?

Well lets look at that.

Up throw can chain Fox and Falco and lead to F. Smash pretty nicely at lower percentages. Same goes for Falcon around 30%ish. Pretty nifty.

Back throw can lead to a F. Smash or F. Tilt tipper on normal-fastfallers at lower percentages if they miss thier tech, or tech in place. Unfortunately for Marth players, teching D. throw comes all too easy, quite possibly being his easiest throw to tech. Against floaty characters, Marth can attempt to chase them down with an aerial if they decide to jump away from you, but against these characters B. throw becomes even less of a commodity.

D. throw is nice. Timing for teching is a bit different compared to his other throws so chances are greater that a F. Tilt or F. Smash tipper will land if they don't DI too far away. Using it sparingly while mixing up F. and B. throw can reward you with a missed tech if you finally pull out D. throw when they least expect it.

And finally we have Marth's much vaunted F. throw. Chains a few characters at low percentages (Peach, Zelda, Marth, Mewtwo), and is most commonly used by most for leading into a dreaded F. Smash tipper or aerials ( both very character dependant ).

Now I know I've probably neglected to mention a few things, but the last few paragraphs wasn't really meant to be a guide to using Marth's throws.

So what was the point?

Out of all the possibilities I listed, (and all the ones I haven't mentioned) and with the exception of a few specific situations, with a few specific characters, how many consistant options does Marth really have after any given throw that isn't completely killed by DI or teching?

As far as I can tell, almost none.

Well, I said almost.

If he's good, he can get some consistant chip damage from tech follow ups. Unfortunately, that option often becomes less productive throughout due to eventual damage decay from excessive grab attack use.

1% damage anyone? Yay.

People tend to talk about F. Throw to F. Smash almost like it's guaranteed, when that is hardly the case.

Also, people talk about DI'ing away from Marth is a good way to get yourself tipped, which after some testing, seems false. Everytime I DI away from Marth after F. Throw I'm put way out of range of F. Smash. If Marth wavedashes, I can tech.

Bah, I've babbled long enough (I didn't go to sleep yet, it's 8:00 A.M. and I still gotta go to school LOL).

I just wanted to see what people thought about this recent "revelation" I've had (I'ts probably wrong, that's where you guys come in) as Marth's throws really seem to be getting more love than they deserve.


-SynikaL
(Countdown to harsh and irrational rebuttals,4,3,2....)

[Cloud Strife X]

My goodness...synikal..I must admit....I always knew this about marths throws but I never really put them out there.

And I could had never said it in a better way, congrats syn this thread shows so much of the actual truth and could possibly tweek many people who go on SWF.

Thus showing that you have just done something very great for our community through youre thoughts, amazing.

Good stuff.

Btw my I got my old cell phone # back btw the 240 one if you forgot PM me but I will gladly enjoy having youre company over to smash it up with me every so often. And if my phone doesn't ring don't think of it as me ignoring you I just may not have that cell phone that day I cary 4 different cells.

[SynikaL]

Thanx alot for the kind words Cloud.

Though I doubt everyone will see it in the same light we do, I'm hoping this sparks a good debate, so I can learn a thing or two.

Mostly if I'm possibly missing out on much better options with Marth by focusing on his grabs so much (more than likely).


Oh, and the invitation is always welcome :)

You know how bad I want the competition.


-Syn

[Glide]

As for the down throw, I usually try to use it as a "Follow the tech" game; it can still lead to a pretty quick and easy f-smash, but it's a little more difficult. All in all, his throws to me are just set-ups, and jaunts. Set-ups at low % for some damage dealers, and at higher percentages a jaunt to throw (no pun intended =/) people off their rhythm. As many people know, Marth has trouble KOing people at high percents, and that's why the grabs come in handy; they allow for a bit of a cleaner set-up for those low percentage KOs. I suppose this is just how I play though; I'm a shield grabbing ***** =P

[VilNess]

Good thread, props to Synikal.
There is also lot of good in marth´s throws. When he gets his opponent near the edge and he crabs, he might have easier time hitting enemy away from stage.
This is just logical thinking, im not sure does it work in real game.
btw: marth´s upthrow can ko at high percentages (especially on those low ceiling levels) but that´s nothing new.

I think Marth is a little bit like bowser: their throws are more like set ups for other moves instead of combos, and there is a difference between thos 2 things.

[Rune]

Good thread, nice content.. but I'm sorry, imho it's not true.

Mindgames my friend, it all comes down to mindgames with Marth's throwgame.
If you say.. D-throw a Fox and he tech's it's not like it's all over. He only has 3 options out of his tech, one of them will get him F-smashed anyway, so only 2 options left. Will he techroll past you or away from you? If he roll's away, run with him and grab him again or dash attack him. If he roll's past you, smash the other way.. simple no?

You need to look beond the borderds.. if move A is the best move people will use move 1 to counter it, but what if you do move B? They will use move 1 because they think you'll use move A and they'll be screwed.
Stop thinking so solid, Marth is a fluid char.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
Good thread, nice content.. but I'm sorry, imho it's not true.

Mindgames my friend, it all comes down to mindgames with Marth's throwgame.
If you say.. D-throw a Fox and he tech's it's not like it's all over. He only has 3 options out of his tech, one of them will get him F-smashed anyway, so only 2 options left. Will he techroll past you or away from you? If he roll's away, run with him and grab him again or dash attack him. If he roll's past you, smash the other way.. simple no?

You need to look beond the borderds.. if move A is the best move people will use move 1 to counter it, but what if you do move B? They will use move 1 because they think you'll use move A and they'll be screwed.
Stop thinking so solid, Marth is a fluid char.

Nice you pointed that out.
The thing is, probably every character can mindgame about choosing the throw and the following action to that (especially Mr. GW is good at this). So it´s nothing special that marth can do, because others can do it too.

[SynikaL]

Mindgames my friend, it all comes down to mindgames with Marth's throwgame.

Rune, you unwittingly illustrated my point yourself.

I didn't think I had to come right out and say this, as this is one of the things I figured people would take away from reading my post.

The problem I see with Marth's throws is that he rarely gets guaranteed damage off of anything but an up throw.

Guaranteed damage >>> Mind Games. No?

Like I said before, Marth has almost no consistant options after any given throw but tech follow ups.

And even that is nothing more than a guessing game in Marth's favor.

He only has 3 options out of his tech, one of them will get him F-smashed anyway, so only 2 options left. Will he techroll past you or away from you? If he roll's away, run with him and grab him again or dash attack him. If he roll's past you, smash the other way.. simple no?

No it's not that simple. Marth needs to stay a step ahead of his opponent and constantly make educated guesses on his opponents actions.

If it really was "simple", characters would be dead off a single throw.

Let's look for a sec at what a few other characters can get out of a few of their throws.

Fox has his Up throw to Up Aerial. Feared most by floaty characters who hate the top of the screen. This can combo consistantly. This KO's opponents. If Fox needs to KO any given opponent this is a consistant option.

Ganon has his up throw and down throw, the latter of which can chain grab some characters absurdly easily at times (especially if they aren't good at DI'ing). Both can consistantly lead to Up air and F. air (depending on the character, the speed of their falls and given percentages), and if they don't outright KO you, at the very least can put you in a legitimate position to be edgeguarded. Again, consistant options out of throws.

H3ll look at the Ice Climbers. Not only can they rack up an obscene amount of damage from any given throw, but they can KO too.

Heck, even Mario gets good stuff. B. and F. throw give edgeguard (if it doesn't kill them) attempts and Up and D. throw can give Mario some type of consistant follow up damage at just about any percentage.

....I could go on and on.

Marth's throws deftly pale in comparison to most of the roster's IMO.


You need to look beond the borderds

Stop thinking so solid

Funny. I figured if I really did just regurgitate what every other Marth was doing and simply swallowed the food SWF has fed me, this thread wouldn't exist.

...Maybe I'm not the one thinking so "solid" Rune?

Marth is a fluid char.

Yes, Marth is a great character. Of course that was never the topic up for debate.....

The thing is, probably every character can mindgame about choosing the throw and the following action to that (especially Mr. GW is good at this). So it´s nothing special that marth can do, because others can do it too.

Exactly. Except other characters can do it much better.

-Marth Scrub
(A.K.A Mario Scrub)

[ArC_man]

Some consistant options:

U-throw: does way more than just chain a few fast fallers. At low percents on most chars you can chain u-tilts to aerials which can lead to smashes and other things. At higher percents on faster fallers you can always do u-throw to u-air or another aerial.

B-throw and f-throw both can lead to aerials on floatier chars or faster falling chars at higher percents(b-air, n-air, and f-air, depending on the throw).

The thing is, on many chars f-throw and d-throw will both lead to f-smash (tipper or not). That in itself is an incredible mindgame as one wrong DI = smash/tipper (and death for chars like jigglypuff or at least sends them out for edgeguard... in which Marth is superior to most of the cast at). And Marth usually gets many throws throughout the match (so he'll definitely get plenty of throw to f-smash's)

Guaranteed damage >>> Mind Games. No?

I wouldn't say thats true exactly. You'd have to factor in other things, like the ease of the char to get the grab and how much dmg/KO potential the grab combo has. I mean... if it was Pichu doing d-throw to u-air over and over, you can allow yourself to get hit by that... 7-8 times without much to fear. But Marth can KO you with 1-2 throw to smash's

Since Marth has really good grab range and speed, he's usually going to have an easier time getting grabs. And his throw to f-smash has a 50% chance of connecting (cause of the DI guessing... at low percents it's they can't even DI away) while having a high KO potential.

We can compare that with someone like say.. Ganon. Who has pretty ****ty grab range with poor speed (and also he's taller so it's harder to grab shorter chars) and has a difficult time grabbing an opponent. His d-throw to u-air does probably around 20% but doesn't really start to KO or have any KO potential or sends them out until middle percents (around 60% probably).

So pretty much, Marth has an easier time getting the grabs and he can knock out someone 50% of the time for an edgeguard or KO. Other chars have a harder time grabbing the opponent and pretty much can only do damage or KO/knock out for edgeguard at higher percents. You can argue that Marth doesn't have as many consistant options as other chars. But can other chars' grab combos KO as effectively as Marth's? IMHO Marth's throws give him KO's while other chars' throws give them dmg.

and KO's > Dmg right?

Of course, I'm not saying Marth's throws are "GODLY!" or anything... so don't that it that way -.-


Exactly. Except other characters can do it much better.

Other characters can't do it much better. IMHO marth is the best at chasing techs in the whole game. He has the speed, a very good dashdance (so he can go both ways real fast), one of the best grab ranges, and long ranged attacks.


bah i really should go to sleep -.- (sry for any spelling errors, i doubled checked and couldnt find any but im tired so i might've skipped over something)

[VilNess]

Arc_Man: You have lots of good points in your posts. Yes marth is a tech chaser.
Yes, good dashdance.
But like you said, there´s the 50 % change. 50 % is much considering the damage/knockback marth can deliver.
But the thing is, many characters have those almost 100 % things.
Let´s have some examples.
Game and watches throw is really tricky, cause you don´t know where you´ll go until he threw you off. And when you realise the situation, Geedybua has his parachute ready hitting you far (works very good against shiek, for example) He can´t follow up after that, but changes are enemy will fly off the stage and GW can start edgeguarding with his deadly arsenal of air moves (fair,nair and dair). add his frying pan there and he comes even more deadly... good follow ups i´d say.

Ness: The most versatile throws in the game.
Bthrow is the strongest horizontal strong in the game, need I say more?
Fthrow has it´s set distance and little more at high % . Works wonders as first throw at low percents if the enemy is near to the edge. Might give some really cheap (if you want use the cheap word here) KO´s especially against space animals.
Upthrow: A normal upthrow that works very good for Ness because of his excellent juggling abilities (PK thunder and Headbutt)
and the Downthrow if you want to combo right away. If enemy techs up you can do a bair. if they tech somewhere else ness can follow with a PK shove or a headbutt (fair or uair).
He has the worst crabbing range with Pikachu, but these excellent throws make up for it. Besides he can trianglejump or Doublejump cancel to catch someone...

i´d say better than marth.

[SynikaL]

U-throw: does way more than just chain a few fast fallers. At low percents on most chars you can chain u-tilts to aerials which can lead to smashes and other things. At higher percents on faster fallers you can always do u-throw to u-air or another aerial.

I did say I neglected to mention a few things, just out of the sake of brevity.

Anyway Marth's options out of his U. throw are garbage IMO.

With the exception of Fastfallers, and maybe Ganon at real low percentages, you can't chain up tilts with up throw. They can easily jump out of the way or DI. I've tested this myself.

All u. throw is generally good for is tack damage. You'll never get a KO or even ledgeguard attempt from an up throw. At higher percentages this is what matters.


B-throw and f-throw both can lead to aerials on floatier chars or faster falling chars at higher percents(b-air, n-air, and f-air, depending on the throw).

Marth's recovery from B. throw is so slow I don't think he can ever get any aerials off on floaty characters without chasing his opponent down and catching them as they jump. To which case Samus just starts to tech in order to avoid the aerial.

More mind games. Yay.



The thing is, on many chars f-throw and d-throw will both lead to f-smash (tipper or not). That in itself is an incredible mindgame as one wrong DI = smash/tipper

Yeah, so basically, Marth players have to rely on his opponent screwing up or doing something stupid in order to get anything worthwhile from his d and f throws.

I don't know what you mean exactly by "lead" but his throws don't combo into f. smash ever. They can put them in f. smash's ideal range consistantly, but it's always escapable (though at times it's hard).


I wouldn't say thats true exactly. You'd have to factor in other things, like the ease of the char to get the grab and how much dmg/KO potential the grab combo has.

I have. What you're talking about in those paragraphs basically boils down to risk/reward ratios out of Marth's throws, wich in my opinion-- when you factor in the skill of today's top level players--are crap.

[Ganon]His d-throw to u-air does probably around 20% but doesn't really start to KO or have any KO potential or sends them out until middle percents (around 60% probably).

60% is d@mn good. And I'll go with 60 even though that's a little too high to make a point (it's Ganon). His throws can combo into u air easy. That move can give a edgeguard attempt easy. At higher percentages, even KO characters easy.

But can other chars' grab combos KO as effectively as Marth's? IMHO Marth's throws give him KO's while other chars' throws give them dmg.

H3LL YES they can do it better, because Marth doesn't have any throw combos, he has throw setups. There's a huge difference.\

and KO's > Dmg right?

Of course they do. But Marth doesn't get any KO's from his throws at higher percentages. That's when it really matters. Right?

Other characters can't do it much better. IMHO marth is the best at chasing techs in the whole game.

Eh, I kinda misinterpreted Vil's post and thought he was saying something else. (that other characters get better guaranteed damage) so I misquoted him. You're right.


-CynicaL
(sorry Vil :p)

[VilNess]

Oh, its nothing.
Actually im not sure even if I posted what I meant.
I meant that many characters do their followups/combos from throws as good or usually better than marth does.
Marth crabs so easily so it doesn´t matter that much to him though.

[ArC_man]

But like you said, there´s the 50 % change. 50 % is much considering the damage/knockback marth can deliver.
But the thing is, many characters have those almost 100 % things.

yes lots of chars have things that work 100% but guess what they don't start killing until maybe 60% at the lowest. I was using ganon as an example of a char who can get a kill at pretty low percentages w/ a throw combo (cause ganon has a really solid throwing game). But all that pales in comparison to marth, who can get a KO from a throw at 0%!

Marth's recovery from B. throw is so slow I don't think he can ever get any aerials off on floaty characters without chasing his opponent down and catching them as they jump. To which case Samus just starts to tech in order to avoid the aerial.

Well.. samus (and luigi) escapes or sex kicks outta pretty much everyone's throw follow-ups right? I unno, b-throw sends them up more than sideways and marth can usually get a b-air off at middle percents (on floaty chars) and high percents (on fast fallers). I do it all the time against my friends and it's done in plenty of match video's also *shrugs*

About u-throw, ya u'll never get a KO off of it but at low percents it can get damage fast and lead to early kills or some pretty hefty damage.


Yeah, so basically, Marth players have to rely on his opponent screwing up or doing something stupid in order to get anything worthwhile from his d and f throws.

It's not like it's so incredibly easy to guess what marth is going to do and easily DI out. Like I said, it's a 50-50 chance, you either DI right, or you DI wrong and eat a smash. Even the best players fall to this pretty consistantly (FC finals anyone?).


60% is d@mn good. And I'll go with 60 even though that's a little too high to make a point (it's Ganon). His throws can combo into u air easy. That move can give a edgeguard attempt easy. At higher percentages, even KO characters easy.

60% IS **** good, but compare that to say 20%.
While marth's options aren't guaranteed. His options have the POTENTIAL to be extremely deadly (at least much more deadly than anyone else's throws... well other than sheik's of course :p). On average you can often get 1-2 early KO's off his throws per every 4 stock match (which is a lot IMHO). Of course you can say guarantees > potential. But I have prepared a comeback! :chuckle:

Anyways, in MvC2 Magneto is probably the most unpredictable char (in terms of how he performs in a match) because he can either be extremely effective, or die extremely fast and not have a big impact. But why is he top tier? and why do so many people choose him? It's partly because, in theory, he has the potential to destroy a whole team with just 1 missed blow (by the opponent). What does that do? It forces your opponents to play much more carefully. So it pretty much gives you an advantage even before you start that match (as long as magneto is still alive, he has the potential to destroy your whole team so you must always play carefully)! You can sorta compare magneto to marth's throws. They have to potential to give you kills starting at 0% and it gives you pretty much a mental advantage before you even start the match as they have to constantly watch out for your throws. (I kno you play MvC2 SynikaL so I picked an example from it)

Oh yea.. about the "risk/reward ratios".... Marth's not at any risk, he loses nothing if he misses a smash (except maybe an early kill)


Of course they do. But Marth doesn't get any KO's from his throws at higher percentages. That's when it really matters. Right?

Ack, I think we might've misunderstood each other -.- In my whole post(s) I was talking about early KO's not really about KO's from throws at higher percents. It's true that marth has a lot of problems getting KO's when the % starts to get high. But I don't think getting KO's at higher percents from throws is so important to marth. Marth is a char who gets KO's ASAP and his throws help him do that.

[VilNess]

Well maybe yer right.
But you have to also consider the level you are playing in. not all levels are battlefields, some are Onetts. If you succeeded in dealing that fsmash it will not KO right away.
But I understand your main line. Marth can kill at 20%, some others do it at 60% with bigger change to succeed.
sounds quite balanced.

[Rune]

Levels like that aren't used in most tourneys.

Anywayz, I see what you're talking about now.. still BS since it's the same with just about any char. Almost ever throw combo can be DI'ed out of and most of the ones that are inescapable are weak.

No matter if you go on with your little cruisade against Marth's throws or take a look at what actually happens in tourneys.. Marth's throws are still great, having a 50% chance to destroy your opponent is better then having 100% of getting in some lame attack.

Oh, and mindgames are not gambles, thus the chance of getting things right is above 50%.

[SynikaL]

Anywayz, I see what you're talking about now.. still BS since it's the same with just about any char. Almost ever throw combo can be DI'ed out of and most of the ones that are inescapable are weak.

Thanks for calling my opinion "BS" Rune. That was totally necessary and completely pertinent to the point you're arguing. :)

I put up some pretty good examples of Marth's throws compared to other characters. Seems like you either skimmed over them or decided to ignore them. Go figure.

No matter if you go on with your little cruisade against Marth's throws

Who the h3ll said this was supposed to be some kind of crusade? I just put together some thoughts I had about Marth's throws just to see what the rest of the community thought about them.

Marth's throws are still great, having a 50% chance to destroy your opponent is better then having 100% of getting in some lame attack.

Yeah, you're right. Fox's up throw to up aerial is pretty lame.


Anyway, I'm getting bored of this topic and Rune's getting all defensive so I'm done with my 'crusade" against Marth's throws. I think they suck, most of you think they don't.

Spectacular.

I wasn't trying to change anyones perception of Marth or his throws, just offering my own insight on the subject.


-Kye

[Rune]

Yeah, you're right. Fox's up throw to up aerial is pretty lame.

As if that hits 100% of the time.. maybe against some newbie but..

Anywayz, sorry. I was't trying to kill your topic or anything, it's just that I disagree along with most players because there are people out there who own with Marth's throws, including me to some extent thus whatever you're overlooking, it's there.

By thinking to solid I meant.. you look for combo's that never fail. You seem to want to play the game as effective as possible, but usually the slightly less effective way is more effective.. that's just how your opponents brain works.

[VilNess]

Rune666:
I think you are underestimating other characters throws. Fox up throw is good and his uair makes it even better (In nutshell, i won´t go deeper about this because i´m not fox player, but i´ve read fox guides and those seem to praise the Uthrow for reasons)
Ness: okay, marth can kill at 20 percent with about 50% change. this requires also that he´s near to the corner or at least enough close to it and opponent has to be on the closer side to the edge.
Take same situation with Ness with enemy at 0%. fthrow and your opponent in deep sh't
Donkey kong: throw them out of the stage (should be quite easy with him) and start bairing or dair/fair. also a charged "donkey punch"(Neutral B) is almost a 100% kill.
There are many more examples but the idea is that Marth is no better than some others. Marth´s throw combos/setups require lots of skill to succeed. Put that skill to fox and he won´t miss the combo.

[SynikaL]

There are many more examples but the idea is that Marth is no better than some others. Marth´s throw combos/setups require lots of skill to succeed.


Marth's post throw options require almost no skill at all (except tech chasing). They are just extremely dependant on your opponent screwing up or guessing wrong.

And I don't buy that F. throw to F. smash (or any other throw to f. smash setup for that matter) = 50% success rate crap.

If you're landing f. smash out of throws that much, your opponents have to suck. This from a guy who's only real local comp is his cousin who doesn't play the game seriously.

Ahh h3ll. I kinda wanted this thread to die, but I couldn't resist. Let my "crusade" live on.

-SynikaL

[Rune]

My comp is about as good as me and I ranked 25th at TG so.. I guess my comp would be on the level just below the real top players. And yes I can get them 50% of the time overall (some players more often then others).. Marth's throws do require skill on an advanced level of play, it's just that it's easy to play a descent Marth, but to play a really good one is quite hard.
As for F-throw into F-smash combo's, they require very fast reflexes from your opponent if you do them right. And if they do DI it you can still catch them with a F-smash by "pivoting".

The fact that Marth's throw combo's only kill near edges counts for most chars and since Marth is prolly the best at pushing people around (with his aura of death and Fair's and all) I don't really see your point.

BTW VilNess, are you saying Fox's U-throw-->Uair combo hit more then 50% of the time? Not as far as I know.. especially vs Marth who has quite a few techniques to help him get out of it.

PS: Why do you think the only usefull combo's are combo's that work all the time? There are really barely any that do you know.. why do you think people never complain about anything but Sheik's chainthrow, it's the only really broken one.
And that only counts for US version..

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666



BTW VilNess, are you saying Fox's U-throw-->Uair combo hit more then 50% of the time? Not as far as I know.. especially vs Marth who has quite a few techniques to help him get out of it.

PS: Why do you think the only usefull combo's are combo's that work all the time? There are really barely any that do you know.. why do you think people never complain about anything but Sheik's chainthrow, it's the only really broken one.
And that only counts for US version..

Okay, I was wrong about that fox throw thingy. I don´t know why I written it in the first place like that. Maybe I was under some emiotional progress so I kinda have to apogolize for that. But it´s still a killer combo especially at low ceiling levels.

I don´t think like you stated about sure combos, I never said that. I think marth´s upthrow is quite good, because of marth aerials. Maybe im total noob with marth but I can´t seem to pull the fthrow->fsmash combo to anyone except if I chase them a little and even then it´s hard. I managed to combo some serious damage with marths up throw though...

[Rune]

But it´s still a killer combo especially at low ceiling levels.
I won't deny that..

I don´t think like you stated about sure combos, I never said that.
That was @ Syn.

@ F-throw-->F-smash.. uhm, try it on a Marth with low % (0% will do fine). It's quite easy on him.. just throw and jam the C-stick the second the game allows you to move again.

[ArC_man]

And I don't buy that F. throw to F. smash (or any other throw to f. smash setup for that matter) = 50% success rate crap.

Why can't you believe it? It's logical.

If f-throw to f-smash works (or can work) on an opponent, then d-throw to f-smash (or would u call it b-smash?) also will work because d-throw pretty much the same properties as f-throw.

So according to that, if you grab an opponent, they pretty much have to choose a way to DI (cause if they don't DI they get hit anyways). If they DI the way you're throwing, they usually can escape. If they DI the other way they get hit. Simple?

[Rune]

If they DI the way you're throwing, they usually can escape. If they DI the other way they get hit. Simple?

And if they escape you can use your l33t reflexes and run after them instead so you can just grab them again ^^

And there's always the pivoting which I plan on learning..

All in all there's a 50% chance unless you mindgame them correctly (once they see you do a f-throw-->f-smash on them they'll usually think your gonna go for the same devestating trick.. then you down throw >:]).

'nother nice mindgame.. grab them, wait half a second then throw them. Giving them time to think and prepare to tech makes them easier to predict. As you'll see, most tech-roll away.. follow them and grab them again.. they'll cry.. 's great fun..