Actually Anti-Marth tip.

[SamuelSpade]

Against Marth, at low percentage it may help you to actually DI towards marth when he F-Throws you, as to avoid being hit by the deadly TIPPER!!!!

[stilettotrap]

Then he grabs and throws you again. Oh, JOY!

[Neophos]

helsing, then you continue DI towards him. dont care about getting 150% or something, the tipper is to avoid at all costs.





right?

[Cloud Strife X]

You all need to just stop DI'ing and just accept whats coming to you. :rolleyes:

[SynikaL]

From my experience there are really only a handful of chraracters that Marth truly rapes after F. Throw--mostly floaty characters like Mario, Dr. Mario and Marth who won't fall fast enough to the ground in order to give them a chance to tech.

One exception is Samus; who's so d@mn floaty she can just DI away from Marth and jump out of range of the F. Smash.

Normal-Fastfallers should just be able to tech at low percentages, and DI away at higher ones.

There is always that certain range of percentage where f. throw > f. smash seems guaranteed though. But that's way too situational to take into account.


-Kimosabae

[VilNess]

at least in PAL version marth´s fthrow, as Synikal said, doesn´t work to fsmash in exception to few characters. One of them is Geedybua. Though good GW player won´t hardly ever get caught by marth because of his L-cancelled Key/manhole combo.

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Doesn't work in PAL? Can you elaborate please? From what I've seen they're the same...or atleast it's still just as possible to tip and chain with Marths forward throw in PAL.

[VilNess]

hmm... I said AT LEAST in PAL, so I didn´t specifcally say there is difference between these versions. I´ve played PAL only so how would I know?

Marth´s fthrow to fsmash, as already stated, doesn´t work against many characters and is very situational.
So it works, but rarely... At least my brother can´t seem to pull it out against me when im Ness.

[Rune]

There is no difference between the PAL and US versions of either Marth's F-smash or F-throw.

A lot of chars can be F-throw->F-smashed, ones that can't are either fasfallers (they fall to the ground and tech before the smash) or floaty/light chars (they can simply DI away during the throw therefor ending up outside the F-smash's reach).

The key to all this throwing is mixing them up.. an away DIing floaty/lighty who's trying to get out of the F-throw->F-smash can be down thrown into F-smash.
As for FF's, they can be infinated as long as you guess their reaction correctly.. D-throw first. They'll either:
1. Not tech --> F-smash.
2. Tech on the spot --> F-smash.
3. Tech away --> run after and grab again.
4. Tech toward --> F-smash the other way.

All I'm trying to say is, stop being so misguided focussing on pulling off some uber combo. It's not about those, it's about playing a solid game.

PS: BTW wanna hear a cool story?
Ever heard of the new dashcancel done by lightly taping you controle-stick in the other direction during the start up dash animation? It's very hard, but by master this thing you can move fast enough to F-smash people who can DI out of F-throw-->F-smash easily. Chew on that for a while..

[ta11geese3]

PS: BTW wanna hear a cool story?
Ever heard of the new dashcancel done by lightly taping you controle-stick in the other direction during the start up dash animation? It's very hard, but by master this thing you can move fast enough to F-smash people who can DI out of F-throw-->F-smash easily. Chew on that for a while..

It's actually kind of old..

[VilNess]

the problem with the fthrow fsmash combo isn´t the range, it´s that im already immortal at ground when marth manages to pull his sword.

[Rune]

How are you immortal on the ground? For a split sec yeah, but then you're gonna have to get up in some way and you bet any good Marth wil be on your *** during that time.

It's actually kind of old..

Yeah, 'bout a month maybe.. still, not many people know about it or at least thought about it as you can see in this topic.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
How are you immortal on the ground? For a split sec yeah, but then you're gonna have to get up in some way and you bet any good Marth wil be on your *** during that time.


I don´t want to sound like a lame *** (which I probably will ;) )
But consider that marth needs to grab me in order to put those "not so sure" combos on me. I play Ness and marth seems to have some problems with my PK fire and aerial fakeouts. So it´s not that simple.
besides, I usually roll out from the sword or DI, it is possible.

To be realistic though, the marth I play against is not the experienced player out there...

[Rune]

IC, the problem is, after DIing or tech-rolling you'll still come up someware and that's when Marth gets you anyway because of his fast feet and more importantly, range.

I don't fight Ness a lot though so I don't know how to get him exactly, but there is most likely a way.
Also, Ness has a lot of trouble getting through Marth's range (Ness does have range on some of his moves, but Marth simply has more ^^). Also, Ness is very slow on his feet and doesn't make too much forward distance with his jumps making him very easy to control/push around with Marth considering his aura of death and Fair's.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
Also, Ness is very slow on his feet and doesn't make too much forward distance with his jumps making him very easy to control/push around with Marth considering his aura of death and Fair's.

Well, You just proved you probably haven´t played Ness at all...
Okay, I was overexaggerating (spelling?) but if you would practise just a little while with Double jump canceling Ness´s aerials, you wouldn´t have written that.
It´s true that Ness doesn´t move forward in air much, but ONLY when he has used his 2nd jump or is stunned. And if Ness is stunned just for a little while (around half second and less) he can trick anyone by swingjumping back to opponent and fairing them(of course he needs his 2nd jump to do this).
Ness´s run isn´t best but his wavedash is really good, especially if do the dashstart to wavedash (sorry, I son´t know the official term to that) . and Ness´s dash attack beats Marth in range. Too bad it´s hard to pull efficiently without dashdancing/wavedashing.

Btw. I practised awhile with Marths aerials and they´re really good! you are right about that.
Still if you pull them at the wrong time (like too far from ground to L-cancel) Ness can punish.

[Rune]

Okay, I was overexaggerating (spelling?) but if you would practise just a little while with Double jump canceling Ness´s aerials, you wouldn´t have written that.
I have, know of thier potential and have played a few Ness's that use it and are known as good palyers.

Still, you're prolly right that he can make some speed on the ground with his WD, but his jumps (firts nor second) just don't make him go forward much/fast..
I also stated that some (very few though) of Ness's attacks have indeed more range then Marth's, but overall Marth's pwns Ness range and priority thus effectively breaking down two of Ness's pro's.
Being one of the only chars to not have too much trouble edgeguarding Ness he pretty much eats most of Ness alive.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
I have, know of thier potential and have played a few Ness's that use it and are known as good palyers.

...but his jumps (firts nor second) just don't make him go forward much/fast..


YES THEY DO! im gonna have to argue about this cause I can go really fast with swing jumping or doublejumping right after the first jump.
I can usually airdodge marth tricks. I agree that a skilled player charging fsmash is dangerous when recovering.
another nice trick I usually do is swing jump with dair over marth head and try to land on the other side so he can´t grab. This works.
Marth has indeed your mentioned advantages but in the long run Ness beats marth´s mind games (a match between very skilled players)
Ness has to (sadly) play more flawlessly in order to beat marth...

[Rune]

YES THEY DO! im gonna have to argue about this cause I can go really fast with swing jumping or doublejumping right after the first jump.
Sorry, but still not much compared to a lot of other chars..

I can usually airdodge marth tricks.
That's risky.. if he predicts your airdodge (and I'm quite sure it's predictable) you're gonna eat fair's and F-smashes.

another nice trick I usually do is swing jump with dair over marth head and try to land on the other side so he can´t grab. This works.
Marth can hit behind him with some of his moves, and he also has his dreaded dashdance tricks. Risky and once again, it's predictable after the first few tries.

Marth has indeed your mentioned advantages but in the long run Ness beats marth´s mind games (a match between very skilled players)
Rather the other way round, at least as far as the tricks you just mentioned go.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
1:Sorry, but still not much compared to a lot of other chars..


2:That's risky.. if he predicts your airdodge (and I'm quite sure it's predictable) you're gonna eat fair's and F-smashes.


3:Marth can hit behind him with some of his moves, and he also has his dreaded dashdance tricks. Risky and once again, it's predictable after the first few tries.


4:Rather the other way round, at least as far as the tricks you just mentioned go.

1: Ugh, we don´t seem to get any satisfying results to both sides. I think capt. falcon can go faster, but not many else.

2: there are 9 different possibilites to airdodge, up, upleft, left... and neutral. And If I airdodge to ground (little like wavedashing) being a bit over the ground I have many options there (sidestep, A A A, Grap, any Ness tilt)

3: So can Ness... Ness can also dashdance

4: This page doesn´t have enough room for all the tricks Ness has... You still haven´t mentioned about the problem for marth having to get through Ness´s PK fire in those 3 plated stages (battlefield for example)


I´d say this is quite a balanced match up, and arguing doesn´t seem to help it much here...

[Rune]

1: Ugh, we don´t seem to get any satisfying results to both sides. I think capt. falcon can go faster, but not many else.

2: there are 9 different possibilites to airdodge, up, upleft, left... and neutral. And If I airdodge to ground (little like wavedashing) being a bit over the ground I have many options there (sidestep, A A A, Grap, any Ness tilt)

3: So can Ness... Ness can also dashdance

4: This page doesn´t have enough room for all the tricks Ness has... You still haven´t mentioned about the problem for marth having to get through Ness´s PK fire in those 3 plated stages (battlefield for example)

I´d say this is quite a balanced match up, and arguing doesn´t seem to help it much here...

1. Capt. Falcon is the most obvious one yes, but there are a lot more.. at least Pika, Fox, Marth and peeps like that will out manouvre him and prolly stuff like the Mario's, Luigi, IC, etc aswell.
Just face it, Ness is not good at getting around fast.

2. I can simpley stand there, see you dodge and smash afterward. Doding downward might work in some cases, but I don't think it's more then my reflexes can handle..

3. Ness has one of the most pitiful dashes and thus dashdances in the game.. it's totally pointless ok. Marth on the other hand has arguably the best dashdance in the game..

4. Shorthop, Fair in your face.. as far as I know the space between Ness and his PK fire is just enough to fit a Fairing Marth in, so you won't be able to shieldgrab or attack out of your shield either.

PS: This place was meant for arguing, sharing, discussing and such.. hearing other peoples opinions and comming up with arguments to prove them wrong or be proven wrong yourself might give you new and improved insight in the game.. nothing wrong with that.

[VilNess]

Indeed I have learned from your points of view, I hope You consider mine also.

I think I need to explain this because I think you´ve been misunderstooding me. Maybe Ness isn´t the fastest to move vertically, and not even horizontally, but here´s what i´ve been trying to point out. The part of the swingjump(starting frames of 2nd jump) is where Ness goes really fast and he can change his direction in air very suprisingly. NO he doesn´t go fast in any direction except for this part of the jump. So he can float a bit like luigi and swing like Ness is supposed to do. Believe me, it´s fast. And where Ness rises above everyone else is the way he can change direction in air probably the fastest because of his second jump (Jiggly might beat him by direction changing speed though.)
So mix that with Ness´s great aerials and you have a dangerous jet hog against you. Yes, there are downsides (especially against marth) because if Ness gets hit after using his 2nd jump he might be in trouble if he gets hitted away. Probably marth is the hardest enemy to get through. Still, if you master Ness´s 2nd jump and see an opening (even like a missed ftilt) you should be quickly get in marth´s range because of his fast swingjumping.
Look you can argue about Ness´s air speed if you want to but im strongly backing what i´ve writed here because I think it´s true. You can be right, I can be wrong... it actually doesn´t matter too much because im still able to suprise just about anyone with swingjumping. (except If I have to spam it :) )

2: If you just stand there, I just might try to hit you (like fair) or airdash-sweetspot the edge (Ness grabs quite easily the edge) It´s mostly about mind games here who gets the hit...

3: Ness´s dash isn´t bad because of his dashattack. mix that with dashdancing(fox trotting) and you get a nice suprise move with great range too. Might not be as good as marth´s, but again: mind games. Besides, if you manage to hit with the first spark of Nesses dash attack, it will send the enemy flying in a scary angle down and away!

4: Yes, that shorthop your face does work, but only if you can predict that PK fire. It´s not that easy to jump against good Ness who can take benefit of the whole range of PK fire(actually you can´fair in the face easily, if Ness WD´s back and fires)t . against a stupid Ness who spams that fire it´ll be easy.
You should see a video where Ness fight´s marth in that kirby64 stage. marth has some problems getting in to Ness´s range (and at times, vice versa)


What I meant about arguing is that it seems that we have some need to force our characters (your marth, my ness) to look better than they are, so this conversation might not be enough objective (information
not affected by it´s teller).
But I´ve learned something about your statements. thank you for that.

[Rune]

Indeed I have learned from your points of view, I hope You consider mine also.
Obviously, I'm not that full of myself..

I think I need to explain this because I think you´ve been misunderstooding me. Maybe Ness isn´t the fastest to move vertically, and not even horizontally, but here´s what i´ve been trying to point out. The part of the swingjump(starting frames of 2nd jump) is where Ness goes really fast and he can change his direction in air very suprisingly. NO he doesn´t go fast in any direction except for this part of the jump. So he can float a bit like luigi and swing like Ness is supposed to do. Believe me, it´s fast.
Very true, and I'm aware of that.. but this won't help the fact that Marth has a pretty easy time spacing his attacks against Ness because he can run circles around him.
Ok, Ness does move a lot eventhough it's in one spot, so that might help distore Marth's flow. That's what jiggly does against Marth anyway.

Still, if you master Ness´s 2nd jump and see an opening (even like a missed ftilt) you should be quickly get in marth´s range because of his fast swingjumping.
Prolly true.. as I said Jiggly tactics. Very risky though.. if you get hit you're fscked.

2: If you just stand there, I just might try to hit you (like fair) or airdash-sweetspot the edge (Ness grabs quite easily the edge) It´s mostly about mind games here who gets the hit...
If you hit me you won't make it back.. if you will make it back w/o having to airdodge then yes, you have a fair chanse of getting thru my edgeguard.

3: Ness´s dash isn´t bad because of his dashattack. mix that with dashdancing(fox trotting) and you get a nice suprise move with great range too. Might not be as good as marth´s, but again: mind games. Besides, if you manage to hit with the first spark of Nesses dash attack, it will send the enemy flying in a scary angle down and away!
There is indeed nothing wrong with his dash attack, but his dashdance only covers a very small distance, so it won't help break Marth's flow.. also, his running speed is t3h crap. So no running away from Marth for him.

4: Yes, that shorthop your face does work, but only if you can predict that PK fire. It´s not that easy to jump against good Ness who can take benefit of the whole range of PK fire(actually you can´fair in the face easily, if Ness WD´s back and fires)t . against a stupid Ness who spams that fire it´ll be easy.
You should see a video where Ness fight´s marth in that kirby64 stage. marth has some problems getting in to Ness´s range (and at times, vice versa)
Predicting it won't be needed.. it's not that fast so I can just jump it on reflex. The WD back might work.. have to see that for myself first.

What I meant about arguing is that it seems that we have some need to force our characters (your marth, my ness) to look better than they are, so this conversation might not be enough objective (information not affected by it´s teller).
But I´ve learned something about your statements. thank you for that.
I'm a Marth fanboy, but I asure you I'm being objective.. if you make a good argument I won't be childish, I'll give you the wins you deserve.
Like Ness being able to get in and out of Marth's range with 2nd jumps.. it's what Jiggly does, and I know it workes with her.. so sure, I'll believe it works with Ness.
And the WD back --> PK fire.. I need someone to use that on me so I can see if there's a simple solution around it, otherwise you're prolly right on that one 2.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666


1:Prolly true.. as I said Jiggly tactics. Very risky though.. if you get hit you're fscked.


2:If you hit me you won't make it back.. if you will make it back w/o having to airdodge then yes, you have a fair chanse of getting thru my edgeguard.


3:There is indeed nothing wrong with his dash attack, but his dashdance only covers a very small distance, so it won't help break Marth's flow.. also, his running speed is t3h crap. So no running away from Marth for him.



4:I'm a Marth fanboy, but I asure you I'm being objective.. if you make a good argument I won't be childish, I'll give you the wins you deserve.
Like Ness being able to get in and out of Marth's range with 2nd jumps.. it's what Jiggly does, and I know it workes with her.. so sure, I'll believe it works with Ness.


1: I agree, you just have to dig for openings... and it´s risky

2: I agree. Ness can trade blows with his fair to marth´s something and Ness is fckd up. But I think there might be times when you can"swingjumpfaircounter" ,even marth (usually works at low-middle damage)

3: I agree, but I think you might be able to wavedash away (although Marth WDs faster). I usually do the "runstart" wavedash which is run a little and wavedash and repeat, but that turns you away from your opponent if you are running away. problems with the wavedash is that Marth can still attack Ness but he might be able to trick some attack against chasing... So it´s mindgames again who gets the hit (and seems to me that marth has less risky when chasing Ness. I haven´t tried this with marth but some characters can do something suprising/deadly when running, tilting down to stop the run and continue with something).

4: Seems to me you are a wise SSBM player. I bet your age is over 17 (I wasn´t very mature until 17, i´m 19 now)
And after this conversation I believe Ness has an uphill battle against marth, but even a slight difference between marth and ness player´s skill and his/her mindgames skill can give the victory to Ness (of course meaning that the skill is higher with Nessplayer, doh :) )

edit: **** typos... :o

[Rune]

Seems to me you are a wise SSBM player. I bet your age is over 17 (I wasn´t very mature until 17, i´m 19 now)
And after this conversation I believe Ness has an uphill battle against marth, but even a slight difference between marth and ness player´s skill and his/her mindgames skill can give the victory to Ness (of course meaning that the skill is higher with Nessplayer, doh)

I think we have an agreement then ^^

I'm 18, my birthday's 20th september so almost 19 btw.

[Cloud Strife X]

Happy early Birthday rune :p, FL. is about to get hit with a nasty hurricane soon so this may be my only chance to say it....

:p

Also rune does know what he is talking about people I played him before and he is highly skilled....also his double arial forward A's are to pretty....*Cries* but yea Rune definately knows what he is talking about.

[Rune]

Thnx dude, still think you would have done a lot better against me at TG under different circumstances if you know what I mean.

Don't feel bad losing to me though, you lost to "pretty" (lol) Fairs and I got 25th out of 118 (which is pretty l33t since it's TG).

GL with the hurricane btw, saw it on TV.. we never have those over here in Europe. Looks pretty nasty indeed :"

[SynikaL]

Three hurricanes in one month.



Spectacular.


-Marth Scrub
(Just another one of many reasons I hate Florida)

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Cloud Strife X
but yea Rune definately knows what he is talking about.

... So it seems. I just picked up Doc again and practised with him if I ever would happen to end in any tourney (I live in Finland and there´s really not competition or tourneys here)

[Rune]

Finland? Well we've got guys from Sweden comming to our tourneys in the Netherlands.. so why arn't you comming?

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
Finland? Well we've got guys from Sweden comming to our tourneys in the Netherlands.. so why arn't you comming?

Huh? I didn´t know they held tournies in Europe, especially Netherlands! If they happen to still do tournies in the next summer and there are some good bands (I´m mostly a musician) at the same time I´ll consider it for more than once!

[Rune]

Lol, you should keep an eye out dude.. we've had lot's of tourneys here in the Netherlands and quite a few in England and France 2.

[VilNess]

OK, I´ll go buy some binoculars :newbie:

going to another land is quite a big thing, especially for a studednt with not too much money...
besides it would be quite weird to go 3000 km away from home to lose at the first round... if being looking it the worst way possible.
I don´t know. I´m one of those smashers whose playing seems to suck quite high at some days, then there are those other days when I seem to three stock anyone and invent new mindgames in every other match... weird, but true

England could be cool, there is lots of cool other thing going down... good bands and theaters etc.
Thanks for info!