bowser vs. shiek

[Arash]

can anyone tell me how the heck bowser can stand up to someone that kills him after the first grab without any kind of way to fight back?

i'm sure if anti-shiek strats were discussed, you would see a lot more bowsers in tournaments, so please share.. (i'm not just talking about the horrible chain throw either, bowser can't really get past all the combo-goodness)

[GrabfestBowser]

I got nothing for ya bro, you just gotta outplay her... you're fighting an uphill battle that is incredibly steep.

Luke

[Decadent One]

Play PAL - no chain throws!

All that's left are tilt comboes, needle set ups and the Slap O'Doom.....

Still rock hard, but a **** sight more manageavble than the bloody broken d-throw!

[MagnuM]

I've heard that crouch cancelling, then fortressing a Shiek is quite effective. However, Bowser has no real way to get away from a quick dash grab.

[Kyari]

Look man, a little known secret that me and my buddies have discovered: the best way to handle a Shiek is to un-plug his controller. By the time they plug it back in, they've taken two or three hits - might get them up to about 50%. Feel free to repeat this as needed.

All seriousness aside, I've noticed that if I feel like someone is just about to murder me and I can't evade, I do an Up+B in thier direction (on the ground) his Up+B can be pretty annoying. Also, shuffle fairs and bairs. Bowser also has a pretty good shield, so find opportunities to shield grab, make up your own chains based upon their DI and such.

Either way, we all know bowser LIKES shiek. >_<

[GrabfestBowser]

personally I'm not a fan of fortressing into people because you nip them for only a couple percent, and if you nip them somewhere in the middle of your fortress you have too much lag again to get it off... in this case you get hit afterwards, and you are taking more than you are giving. You wanna hit with the fortress at the beginning, and only get that nip in when you have no other options left.

Luke

[MagnuM]

It all comes down to what the Shiek player perceives. If they see you sitting inside your shield as Bowser, of course they're going to go for a dash grab and chain you to ****. As I said before, one of Bowser's many disadvantages is the inability to escape quick dash grabs (no quick WD backwards, etc). I would try and intercept the dashing shiek, or maybe jump backwards, but even the jump backwards animation is like 8 sloooooow frames. That's a hard one to win, it is possible though; it all comes down to mind games.

[DireVulcan]

One thing that really helps against Shieks is not to be planted on the ground.

Me, I try to constantly be in the air, always jumping and waiting for him to get near so I can attack.

Also be wary of a Shiek that likes to block when you get near him.

Start switchign up his Fairs with his B grab.

And if you feel he's going to WD back or roll, put a delay, or just switch to landing and fortressing to him.

Also, throw random forward smashes. it's always great to see Shiek run right into them.

But the more you stay on the ground the more of a chance Sheik is going to grab you and rape you.

Reaction is your best weapon.

[XkyRauh]

Forward Smash? The odds of that connecting are... not good. Grabfest, do you even use the FSmash? O_o;; I thought Bowser's FSmash, DAir and BAir were no-no's?

--Xky

[Arash]

dair, i have to agree

fsmash, is just too good when dealing with characters with particularly predictable recovery (especially if you're a big fan of overkill)... also, random fsmashes don't work, they're just way too slow

but bair?? come on, that thing pseudo-spikes if it doesn't outright kill, and the reach is about as good as marth's sword..

anywho, the thing that most concerns me is the freaking chain throw, so any way of getting out before 75% would be much appreciated

edit: fine, maybe not 75% but you get the idea

[GrabfestBowser]

I'm a no no for dair and Fsmash, but Bair I use when the time is right. I just think Fsmash is too hard to hit with and you can use Fair instead of it and get really good knockback with that too.

But Bair I use to to edgeguard either from the end of the ledge or hanging from it. While hanging you can fall off, Bair, and UpB and still grab the ledge again, but it's hard and you have to master the timing.

Luke

[PXTalon2000]

All the pounding on the fsmashhhh...

I like it... I think it's a good move... It's Bowser's quickest dodge (it punishes grabs pretty well) And you can hit a shield with impunity. Plus it makes a decent fakeout when a person expects a grab. With WD.. you really can make use of it. You have to be somewhat quick with WD and dashing to use it to assuredly punish moves like CF and Dorf's B-moves (and by quick I mean almost preemptive). I've been noticing lately that the DA dash / pivot has been helping me land it, too.

But fact is I could probably live without it.

As far as Shiek goes... If he's using a wavebird you can just get your friend to find out his signal; most effective while Shiek's about to fair Bowser to his death (but suddenly upB's and tragically vaults off the stage). Otherwise you've gotta' unplug the controller.. No other way.

But ihh... 75%? You're absolutely certain that heavy, post-DI mashing (Like rotating the control stick while simultaneously inputting as many buttons as possible, including the shoulders) won't get you out before then?

Yeah, we should all play PAL.

I can say with certainty that Shiek *will* grab Bowser. So... Any counterstages?

EDIT: No, seriously, I would believe 75% if you told me, considering all the ways out there to extend the chain throw in NTSC. It would be handy to know a more specific escape %age. (For any chain throw for any character)

[GrabfestBowser]

I think the stages that give me the best chance against Sheik are Rainbow, Poke Floats, and battlefield, but with the first two I am totally pitting my skill vs my opponents, where mine is usually better. If you are pitting even skill then Sheik will win there. I like Battlefield a lot, because of those platforms on the sides. Another thing, whenever you are on a platform like the ones I just wrote about and your opponent is on the bottom platform, ALWAYS fortress off your platform and down into your opponent and Ftilt out of it. Make sure you get the fortress to go "through" the opponent, you don't wanna end up on top of him. I find it the best way to approach the opponent.

And of course I like MK2. And I love Jungle Japes. Those small platforms on the sides are owned by Bowser, and since they are higher than the main middle platform, don't jump onto it, jump onto the ledges of those and go from there, you can get up with A if under 100, or you can get up to Fair or Klaw. And when you are in trouble and you are on one of those platforms you can fortress off of them and onto the main platform in the middle, and no character in the game can catch you... if they get close enough you can fortress again. I promise.



Luke

[MagnuM]

Originally posted by GrabfestBowser
I'm a no no for dair and Fsmash, but Bair I use when the time is right. I just think Fsmash is too hard to hit with and you can use Fair instead of it and get really good knockback with that too.

But Bair I use to to edgeguard either from the end of the ledge or hanging from it. While hanging you can fall off, Bair, and UpB and still grab the ledge again, but it's hard and you have to master the timing.

Luke

Are you sure there is enough time to do a Bair hanging from the edge Luke? I've tried to pull that off many times in the air, but I can never get back to the ledge. What I do instead is jump up off the ledge doing a Bair and landing on the stage L-cancelling as I do it.

Do you have a video of yourself doing a Bair off the ledge with master timing? I thought only "floaty" characters like Marth, JigglyPuff and the Mario Bros for example can do ledge attacks outwards. I guess either way you do it with Bowser, it's risky as **** because your timing has to be perfect.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by GrabfestBowser
I think the stages that give me the best chance against Sheik are Rainbow, Poke Floats, and battlefield, but with the first two I am totally pitting my skill vs my opponents, where mine is usually better. I


What about Onett? I think Bowser can punish there with Fortress and edge-games. Sheik can´t spam those dam needles all over the stage.

[GrabfestBowser]

I'm positive you can do it. It's a timing thing with the upB... you can't just keep hitting b as fast as you can... it won't work. Practice I'm positive you can do it. But it's hard.

Luke

[Neophos]

I can do the drop off to bair around 70% of the time..(and survive ^_^)

remember to use back and not down to drop off...

else, i guess its just timing...

[MagnuM]

I tried the drop off Bair for a while and just concluded that it was way too risky to pull off in a match. I can only do it about 10% of the time. Even if I could do it 50% of the time, or 70% of the time like Neophos, I still wouldn't, because that still means that for every 10 times you attempt the move, you'll SD 3 times. Not worth the risk if you ask me. The timing has to be godlike and there is absolutely no room for error. If you ask me, it's way easier and less dangerous to jump off the edge onto the stage, Bairing as you jump; you can L-cancel as well and the spikes reach the edge. I use this move quit often with a recovering opponent that can get back to the stage.

[GrabfestBowser]

yeah I don't do it in serious play... just kinda practicing it now.
Jv3x3 said captain jack was destroying people with it.

Luke

[PXTalon2000]

There's a decent room for error with the dropoff bair. And it's a good edgeguard. It's just not as versatile as other dropoff bairs because you have only so much space and time to use it. Using bair or klaw during their recovery lag can be just as effective and less risky. You can almost ignore the risk, though; 'cuz if you see that you'll need it, you go for it.
And yeah, you can push upB rapidly, as long as you pressed Y and A quickly enough in the first place.