Edgeguarding Discussion

[MookieRah]

As we all know, Marth and Roy have very impressive edgeguarding skillz. Marth is possibly the best edgeguarder in the game, and Roy isn't much worse at it IMO.

So in order to improve my edgeguarding and possibly others I decided to make this discussion topic.

First I will start with what I know.

Marth________________
D-tilt:
Down tilt is tha shiznit. If they are below the stage trying to get back, and aren't Sheik, they should have a *****ing time trying to get back on the ledge. A few hits with this and then edgehogging is often fatal.

D-air:
One of the best spikes around. It has good coverage, comes out fast, and has a LOT of power. If they come above the stage and get whacked by this, they aren't coming back up, well at least not on the American versions :-P.

F-Smash:
The dreaded tippered f-smash. The best smash in the game IMO (also one of the most OVERPOWERED moves in the game IMO) can catch peoples feet as they try to make it back on the stage through the air.

Shield Breaker (Neutral B):
Although Roy's Flare Blade is used often for edgeguarding, Marth's Shield Breaker isn't. I use it from time to time, and although it is harder to use due to Marth's gravity, it still packs in some edgeguarding goodness. Still, i wouldn't use this too often, but when they start expecting you to do one of the others, hop out and smack them in the brow with this to make them think twice.

Roy_________________
Flare Blade (Neutral B:
Definitely Roy's best edgeguarding move. I have a whole thread dedicated to the discussion of this move, so I am not gonna go into the details.

Counter (Down B):
Heh, a very *******ly method of edgeguarding. I don't use it as much as I should, mainly cause I love flare blade. Against the space animals it is VERY effective.

DED (Forward B):
Although, a chance to use the DED spike doesn't come around very often, it is definitely worth mentioning. People should be afraid to be slightly above the stage when you are next to it because of this.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I have to go to class, so the Roy section was a bit more rushed. Anyways, tell me what you think, and correct me if I am wrong. I am sure there are a ton of things I don't know about edgeguarding too, so PLEASE share the info.

[FaTmAn2k20]

With Roy, a lot of times I like to d-tilt which pops them into the air which allows you to follow up with an attack. This doesn't work at higher percentages, obviously, because it sends them too high for you to really do anything with it, but at lower percentages it helps set up for an fsmash. It's a pretty deadly combo.

[Ty Guy]

I think the edgeguarding techniques you've listed for Marth are pretty correct. I might consider wavedashing(or jumping) on to the edge. After this jump while holding down and use a bair or nair when your opponent is recovering. It's also handy to have the timing down so you can just edgehog and then climb up, with out getting hit yourself. Also knowing the methods for other characters is key. I often have trouble getting rid of floaty characters like jiggly.:D

[ArC_man]

ya, marth's b-air is nice for edgeguarding chars who try to come over you (tho you could just spike them i guess)

don't forget roy's f-smash... works just like marth's.

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

Since you've gone over most of the moves already (the only thing not mentioned so far is a sweetspotted forward tilt, which can replace a smash when you don't have the time), I'll go into techniques against certain types of charcters.

This is for Marth btw, I just forward smash a lot with Roy to edgeguard...

Fast-fallers should be dead almost everytime they leave the stage. the only thing Fox and Falco can hope to do is go completely over you with their up b, which means you only have to move backwards and tipper them on the way down. otherwise downtilt beats out their up and over b easily, and if they don't try to sweetspot, just forward smash. Falcon is much of the same, d-tilt when he goes for the sweetspot, forward smash when he doesn't.

Floaty characters is where it gets interesting. I've found tha bair might be your best choice (whether from an edgehog or with a double jump, depending if they go low or high), keeps them occupied while they try to recover and keeps you relatively safe. May take several against Samus/Peach/Jiggly, but it's the only reliable way to keep them off the stage. Eventually they run out of recovery, just takes forever sometimes... Also, it's worth mentioning that if you non-sweetspot a fair over the edge at medium percents against most non-fastfallers you get a free spike :) Otherwise just try to down tilt and forward smash when you can, but it won't be often if they know how to recover.

Also, a nasty trick against another Marth or Roy is to crouch near the edge, take the hit from their up b, and CCC them with a downtilt. Then if they're at low percents simply down tilt again or just edgehog.

I pretty much never use shield breaker to edgeguard, simply because Marth has so many better options in most situations.

[MookieRah]

don't forget roy's f-smash... works just like marth's.
Well, due to the sweetspot range I very rarely get a chance to use this that often for edgeguarding. About the only times I can think of it is to smash them out of an edgehog or if they do something just plain stupid like drop in so that I can fsmash them. I can sometimes get a good smash in after a downthrow off the ledge.

Yeah, you are right though, I should have added that to the list, but I just figured at the time that it wasn't a method that should be used *too* often.


I've found tha bair might be your best choice

Heh, I gotta try that out.

[AWrulez]

Roy's forward smash's sweet spot also has excellent range... just because it doesn't have the range of Marth's (who does?) doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it. Roy's still has very good range, is a disjointed hitbox, and has Marth's tipper like power, with a helluva lot more sweet spot area. And most recovering moves can't compete with that kind of range and priority. Also, if you hit with the non sweetspot, there still is knockback, and a chance for a follow up.
It should probably be one of his two main edgeguarding moves IMO. Flare Blade is good too. I'm not sure about which one has more range, although it would be a bit warped because of Roy's sweet spot. Isn't forward smash safer in terms of lag too? And if you don't have time to charge the flare blade for a good amount, forward smash is much better. Flare Blade is also seen from a mile away.
Back air is good when you're edgehogging. If you realize he might make it back, jump out, back air, grab the edge again. You don't actually have to be edgehogging at first, you can have your back facing the edgehoggee, jump out, back air, and grab the edge then.
Marth also has a forward+B spike (upwards on the third hit of the dancing blade I think), though its also very situational.

[Sengin]

AW, Roy's is up on the third hit, Marth's is down on the third hit.

I've been wondering (and I can't try it because my gamecube isn't working - **** cannot read disk error), if you were to use a d-tilt with roy for an edgegaurd at a high percent that wouldn't allow for an f-smash, could you actually use the dair spike? From a d-tilt, usually the opponent can't move until they reach the height of where the d-tilt sends them, and you might be able to try the dair (but not so that you leave the stage - you'd jump straight up). My guess is that it wouldn't work because they'd probably hit the ground, but Roy doesn't need to be [i]directly[i] below the opponent (the opponent can be to the left or right a bit - I've tried this in the HRC a bunch of times and the bag gets spiked), it might send them down the pit depending on how far they are from the edge and if they get sent downward at an angle. Just a though - anyone care to test this?

[LoTr_FrEaK]

With marth the main edgaurding moves I use are:

D-Tilt, Spike & sometimes I drop from the stage.. and attempt a Fwd-A tipper.

[MookieRah]

Roy's forward smash's sweet spot also has excellent range... just because it doesn't have the range of Marth's (who does?) doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it.

Heh, don't get me wrong, I use the f-smash with Roy for edgeguarding, but I use flare blade MUCH more.

I think flare blade is more suited to edgeguarding than f-smash for various reasons. For starters, flare blade is best at the tip and hits a lil bit below Roy. Also, you can jump out and flare them. I don't use it the same way every time either. Sometimes I stay on the ledge, sometimes I jump out and hit them with it, and if they start to air dodge through it i will jump out and jump back on the stage and flare them off.

Lots of lil tricks, but a lot of it comes down to your style of play I guess. I just really love the flare blade ^_^.

Just a though - anyone care to test this?

This seems to be highly situational, but bad as ****. I am gonna try it out a bit, but I have yet to pull off a dair spike with Roy when it counted.

[VilNess]

Nice to know avout these, although I don´t play the swordsmen.
Question:
How do you edgeguard a Ness who has a 2nd jump still left?
What I mean is, I play against marth and I seem to have no problem coming back to stage with the 2nd jump.
It seems that marth has a little starting lag in almost every edgeguarding move he has, so i just air dodge or in levels like FD I double jump sliding the wall and fair them and Voila, Ness is rocking again.

Now and then I also manage to recover even with PK Blast, but that´s usually when I sweetspot the edge from 45 degrees above. can you edgehog that or is it too risky.
Before answering these question ask yourself have you ever played against a good Ness. because If you haven´t, you probably have had easy matches...

[Glide]

As far as I've seen, edgeguarding ness is about outranging him. A lot of people stand a little to close to the edge of the stage, and leave themselves vulnerable to be hit on the way up/on the platform. Rather, Marth would gain some benefit from staying back from the edge until he knows Ness's course of action.

Edgehog the **** out of PK Blast. There's a good deal of lag if he doesn't make contact with the ground or a wall, and you can quickly drop-jump recover on the level and send him away. If he hits the ground, then you've obviously mis-judged your opponent's intentions.

[VilNess]

Sounds logical.
Though you still didn´t convince me about how marth is going to deal with air dodging ness. What I mean is that Ness´s 2nd jump can be really unpredictable, but marths dtilt seems to mess up sweet spotting the 2nd jump. But that´s not enough to edgeguard Ness. He can do a uair and go to ledge, back to stage or air dogdge after that. that uair might hit Ness´s opponent (although against a good marth it might be hard)
Also notice how greatly Ness grabs the ledge after a airdodge...

[ArC_man]

If ness has a 2nd jump left, you'd prolly have to jump out and either flare blade (roy) or b-air (marth). Of course, if the ness is close enough to airdodge onto the stage... there's not much you can do about it other than maybe try to bait the air dodge and hit him back out afterwards (ie. charge the fb/sb or a smash)

Edgehogging PK Blast is no problem, but there's a good chance the ness will see and just go over you. Usually if ness is at an angle where he can sweetspot the ledge w/ a PK blast (meaning he has to be pretty close... unless he's just insane and can sweetspot the ledge from uber far away... then u should just edgehog), you can jump out and hit him b4 he even does it (or just take the hit from the bolt, whichever is easier).

Roy's D-air... I've actually landed it a couple times in friendlies, though I don't think I've ever made it back to the edge (cause they weren't on opponents who were above the ledge :p). Pretty much in any situation that it *can* be used, you could do something better or more effective instead.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by ArC_man

Edgehogging PK Blast is no problem, but there's a good chance the ness will see and just go over you. Usually if ness is at an angle where he can sweetspot the ledge w/ a PK blast (meaning he has to be pretty close... unless he's just insane and can sweetspot the ledge from uber far away... then u should just edgehog), you can jump out and hit him b4 he even does it (or just take the hit from the bolt, whichever is easier).


Well, I can recover quite usually from the farthest possible location, if necessary (I once spended lots of time mastering his PK thunder) And I can say against a good Ness taking the PK thunder is out of question. Fair seems to work good in the videos i´ve seen, but sometimes the PK thunder hits marth after he faired Ness and now Ness and Marth need to recover, making it easier for Ness.
If your Ness enemy is stupid and uses the PK thunder too close to the edge, then KOing Ness is very easy.

[Rune]

Against PK Thunder.. ignore the little runt and attck above him to hit the PK thunder itself. Otherwise.. try hitting the PK thunder thru Ness (hitting both the orb and Ness himself). That way you hit Ness away for a bit and make him use the move again.. jump back and edgehog, hopefully you'll have hit him far away enough so he won't make it back on the edge.

[VilNess]

Originally posted by Rune666
Against PK Thunder.. ignore the little runt and attck above him to hit the PK thunder itself. Otherwise.. try hitting the PK thunder thru Ness (hitting both the orb and Ness himself). That way you hit Ness away for a bit and make him use the move again.. jump back and edgehog, hopefully you'll have hit him far away enough so he won't make it back on the edge.

Well what if Ness is above the stage, so he can shoot his head, go downwards and sweetspot. I don´t think Marth can go that up. He can try to fair him though.
Your rule might work when Ness is enough down below the level. Only that good Ness players takes enough distance so he can barely shoot himself on the level (and not just sweet spot). This distance is something where marth sword won´t easily reach without a suicide... So best bet would probably be dtilting.

[ArC_man]

Farthest possible location = easy edgehog (and roll+smash) for kill. If ness can barely shoot himself onto the level and not sweetspot... all you have to do is edgehog, roll and f-smash him back out (if you're quick enough he won't even land so he won't have his 2nd jump back.. even if he has his 2nd jump back, it just resets the situation but now you knock him back further). If ness is close enough where edgehog wouldn't be as effective, marth/roy would be close enough to jump out and attack him back out.

Honestly it's not so hard to edgeguard ness (seeing that recovery is one of ness's bigger problems =/)

[Sengin]

Originally posted by MookieRah
This seems to be highly situational, but bad as ****. I am gonna try it out a bit, but I have yet to pull off a dair spike with Roy when it counted.

Seriously though, if it were possible to actually use his dair as a spike, that would be sweet as f-ing ****. Your opponent would be all "What the **** just happened?" And you'd be like "You just got spiked with one of the worst if the the worst spike in the game, that's what happened." Total ownage. ****, I'm missing my cube right about now...

Originally posted by ArC_man
Pretty much in any situation that it *can* be used, you could do something better or more effective instead.

What could you use that would be better than the dair spike (considering if it worked) from a d-tilt? I guess you could use flare blade, maybe a f-air. But if it acutually spiked, I think that would be the best option.

[Glide]

The thing about an air-dodge though, is that it can be punished simply by standing back, and waiting for it. Again; it's a matter of knowing what your opponent is gonna do. Sure you can air-dodge, but unless your opponent throws out a sufficiently laggy move to allow you to fall back to the ground, you may be taking another hit. However, if someone were to throw out something like perhaps an f-tilt, there's a good possibility of just eating a c-stick smash immediately afterward. Ness would be a whole lot better off if he were able to pull of a drop-jump recovery, but that's currently difficult to do considering the nature of his second jump and the DJC thing.

[MookieRah]

Seriously though, if it were possible to actually use his dair as a spike, that would be sweet as f-ing ****. Your opponent would be all "What the **** just happened?" And you'd be like "You just got spiked with one of the worst if the the worst spike in the game, that's what happened." Total ownage. ****, I'm missing my cube right about now...

I practiced a good bit the the Roy d-air spike and discovered that it isn't hard to pull off when you know how to hit with it. They have to be above you and you almost seem to have to perform the attack a lil before it would hit (not sure on that). The problem with it is, that if you set it up with a d-tilt and intercept with a d-air, you will more than likely get hit by your opponent after they recover from flailing, and if you hit with it, it will send them down at an angle that will spike them back to the ground and not to their death.

About the only way to spike them would be the d-air to them with your back to the opponent, and that will send them at an outward angle. If that wasn't bad enough, the spike doesn't have much power, so it probably wouldn't kill them unless they had a lot of percent.

So yeah, d-air spiking is pretty dumpy. I haven't given up on it, but so far it's really suckin.

[Sengin]

Crap, oh well. It was an idea I had, and I didn't think it'd work out in the first place. I'll be able to practice it tomorrow when I finally get another cube (because the lens broke somehow with the one I have now), so I'll be able to comment on it also. Who knows, maybe it can work. Hey, I guess it's possible...

[ivootjes(nr18)]

Does nobody use roy and marth's counter? Especially roy's counter is annoying and pretty good.

[That Diablos Guy]

I rarely use the counter as a edgeguard. The other options are just so much better.

[Glide]

Roy's Counter is great against some people; Doc-mario, Firefox/bird, and a few others. Marth's counter just doesn't cut it. Not enough knock-back.

[The Tip Masta]

Hi Glide. I heard that you like astro glide. And that you use it regularly with your boyfriend. What kind of name is glide anyways? You're asking for it when you use g@y names like that. F@GGOT... Go eat some butthairs or something you silly hom0.

[Lxl]

(Ignores The Tip Masta)

**** yeah, Roy's counter is so beautiful at edgeguarding, coupled with some jumped/charged flare blades.

Marth's counter is pretty situational. I already stated this in one of the other threads about this, but I'll just briefly say it again. Marth's counter doesn't have much knockback, but usually when your opponent is at high percentages and you counter a considerably strong move (Shiek's fair, firefox/bird maybe?), your opponent will be knocked too far away for recovery. (For Fox, you probably gotta edgehog, but hey, that's not difficult).

[aho43]

Roy's Bair is pretty good for edgeguarding as well. You can do it out of a edgehog if you have perfect timing. You can jump out and do it as well. Anything that kills peoples momentum back to the stage is great.

Roy's Dair is not practical to use against an oppponent to edgeguard. The strength of the spike is really weak. I've actually pulled it off on people, but even at like 100somethin% its easy to cancel out of it.

For Marth Dtilt is always a good option. I like to get into edgehogging position because that gives you a lot of options. If you can force them to get onto the stage using their upB, you can probably set them up for a fsmash. One thing I like to do is ledgehop a Dair and DI back onto the stage. This is a killer edgeguard for anyone who tries to sweet spot. From an edgehog you can also drop down, jump and Bair a recovering opponent, then upB back to the stage.

If I don't have time to get into an edgehog, you can always run off the stage, jump and place a tippered fair, that should crush most recoveries, and if it doesnt, you'll be in an edgehogging position once you do your upB to recover.

If people try to recover coming in high, bair is always good. If they're coming in high against marth, they will be expecting an fsmash, so just wait for an air dodge, and then punish them.

[TheArchWarlock]

The best way to edgeguard against Ness is to feign ->B spiking him, forcing him to double jump or blast (aiming for the legde=death). Since Marth comes off the spike really fast, you can easily adjust for what he does--if he jumps, try to meteor (dair) him before he comes off the jump (its not too hard, marths meteor has really good range), and if he blasts, you can try to spike him again (master timing required), or let him back on and fs him before he recovers. Now for marth edgeguarding in general, I really favor spiking, because you can vary the timing so much. It only works if they are below you though :(, so if theyre up high, I try to meteor them.
In summary: spike low, meteor high, edgehog against chars with fast up-moves who are below you.

[aho43]

Sword dance = Meteor, Dair = Spike. Just so ya know.

[TheArchWarlock]

i feel dumb
(who came up with these things?!)

you get the point though

the dance move is the best for eg but is really hard to time right. if u get it down (and they dont see it coming/cant stop it) its an almost guaranteed KO at pretty much any damage. There's only a few chars that can recover with up-b (e.g. fox/falco) because theyre up-bs stop their falls. Everyone else is screwed.

[aho43]

If it sends you inwards, as it does sometimes, you can tech out of it, as DSF has shown in that vid.

[Tiller420]

it would be possible to get back from the down air spike cause when im luigi and i know someone is going to spike me if you hit up-b right after or hit it reoeativley right after being hit you can use that last jump effectivley to come back

[TheArchWarlock]

In some cases you can recover, but most of the time its an instant KO. But like I said, it's kind of difficult to master.

[aho43]

In any situation where you can land marth's sword dance spike...you're better off landing his dair spike, or any other number of things that are much better options. First of all, you can meteor cancel his sword dance spike and you have to set it up and time it. The prior two hits kinda knock people up a lil bit so its hard to land the 3rd down swing. Definitely not an instant knockout, and most people aren't stupid enough to get caught in that.

[TheArchWarlock]

In a lot of situations the other guy is coming in at a positive angle (above you), and in those situations, a dair is probably your safest bet. But in almost any situation where they recover from a negative angle, you can dance them out. What I mean is that you so the first two swings of the dance at a certain time (as they are heading toward the edge), then right as they come in range (aka, a split second before they grab the edge), blast them with the down attack. The first two stabs go fast, but you can vary the exact timing of the third attack within about a half second (-ish) time span. You time it right and the tip of the sword stabs them the instant before they grab the ledge.

This also works on characters with relatively slow up-b recovery moves. For example, you can annihilate Fox/Falco as they come beneath you by executing the third swing just as they reach the end of the sword range.

The hard part of this move is making sure you time the start of the first dance move at a good time. Too soon, and you won't be able to get the third swing in. Too late, and you can't get the third swing in before they hit you or grab the edge. Luckily, if they are coming from below or slightly down from the side, their move timing options are quite limited, and thus quite predictable (assuming you have basic knowledge of your opponents character). The move is easy to space because you can dance on the end of the platform, but you won't fall off while dancing. The key is practice and mastery of the timings involved.

As for recovery, this move shoots them down at about the same speed you smash someone forward (I'm not sure about the exact comparison, but it's close enough). Above 50% damage, it's almost impossible for the victim to recover from the blow before they fall off on most levels. Not to say it never happens, but if you execute this move and connect, I'd say you KO them about 70 odd percent of the time, especially on a low lying level like Final Destination or the bottom level of Hyrule Temple.

Again, this move does its finest at a negative approach angle. If they come in from above, it's usually a better idea to hit them with dair or some other technique. Personally, this is my favorite edgeguarding move, and, for that matter, my favorite KOing move (execpt nailing someone with Warlock Punch, but that's pretty rare).