What are some ways to deal with CC whores with Roy?

[MookieRah]

Bleh, the people here are getting extremely annoying to play now that they camp and CC pretty much ALL the time.
I still beat their ***, but it's the biggest pain to deal with.

Are there any good ways to deal with Crouch Canceling with Roy? Pretty much anything less than a smash doesn't seem to phase them in the least for a good bit of percentage.

The only thing that seems to work well is the down B third hit of DED, but they CCC (or counter with Marth) after the first or second hit which kinda makes it suck...

It's kinda hard to get in a grab on these guys too, but if you have any grab combos, go ahead and post them, cause I might not know em.

[Neophos]

Well, doesnt d tilt work?? i dont really know how to deal with them, use smashes^^

and for grab combos, i like a shuffled dair to grab, and on Foxes, continue that with a uo throw to d smash^^

[MookieRah]

Down tilt doesn't work at low percents, and against Marth's they CCC with a down tilt of their own, and it's pretty gay.

Smashes will work, but it is pretty darn hard to actually hit them with one without it being part of a combo.

Also, CC eats Roy's aerials too, so the combo to grab doesn't work.

When I meant throw comboes, I really meant about combos out of a throw, meaning I have grabbed them already. Thanks for the help though, although I usually fair or nair to grab.

[SynikaL]

Well, from what I can tell, to solve Roy's anti-CCing problem, you're more than likely going to need to redevelop your style of Roy.

We know CCing eats all his attacks alive, players have been trying to compensate for this with his DED, wich in my opinion, is bad (now I'm not trying to sound like an expert on Roy here, I'm just trying to give some personal exprience that may/may not help you), as his DED gets him CC punished just as much (first two hits)

Well, what I've been doing recently (I actually just kinda started playing Roy seriously), is I've actually been putting more of a focus on his aerials and his d. tilt.

Now I know this kinda contradicts what I stated in the other thread, but it's not as much about the aerials that get him punished, as much as it is what he may try go for after the aerials.

These are the aerials I focus on with Roy:

F. Air: Means of approach; grab and F. smash setup

N. Air: Means of approach; means of retreat; grab setup

D. Air: Combo enabler at higher percentiles

Nuetral B: Means of approach; means of retreat; edgegaurd enabler

First off, most players usually try and link grabs with F. air at low percentages. I've learned that's a big no, no.

After a f. air, I usually go for a shffld' n. air in order to avoid the inevitable CC retaliation. When that lands, I go for a grab as it gives a bit better knock back and stun than f. air and this usually throws people off their CC game.

So a common string for me at low percentiles is:

F.air>N. air>Grab.

Linking F. air to grab directly is MUCH safer at mid percentages (40-50).


I use N. air a fair bit more than F. air though, for the reasons previously stated, and the fact that it's not as sweetspot dependent as the rest of his aerials, so Roy can space it and still get away with more.

D. air I use quite a bit differently than most other Roy players (do players even use this move?)

I use it at higher percentages, to go for f. smash and grab and tech setups. I never shffl this move. CC'ing owns this move more than any other aerial, even at higher percentages because it's extremely difficult to sweetspot this move shffl'd (you gotta be like, right next to em')

So instead I SH and L-cancel it. When it lands it pops them into the air for all types of setups. Try it out and see if that works out for you.

Lastly his d. tlit.

I seriously don't believe players use this move enough. I ***** this move, as It's godly in my eyes. It's hard to CC this move as it's so quick and sneaky it tends to be hard to anticipate (unless you have specific setups for this move that you abuse). We all know it leads to combos like crazy and I actually use this move just as much as f.smash and nuetral B for edgeguarding as it pops them right into f.smash.


The problem with Roy players seem to be that they want to use his aerials in similar fashion to Marth's, but you simply can't do that. Because of this, players ignore his aerials for the most part and look towards DED, wich is also bad (in my opinion) and they make the assessment he sucks.......

.......Well he does suck, but I feel Roy's style is meant to be played completely different from what we've been seeing, wich is why Roy players are losing.

CC'ing is more of an enemy to Roy more than any other character in the game and as such, the Roy community needs to take a step back and cross- examine this character in order for us to find a way to deal with it.

Sorry this post is so long, but all I'm trying to say is........


We gotta be doing something wrong.


-Cynical

[ArC_man]

I don't think I've ever had too big of a problem w/ CC'ing. Against most chars you can space w/ f-tilt or DED and they won't be able to counterattack. Usually roy can out CC them.. unless it's someone like samus >_<

Stuff you can use:
DED in the air (land w/ the 3rd hit down)
DED on the ground (3rd hit down, this is if they're horribly slow; or try to space so you can hit w/ the 4th hit)
D-air (I'm pretty sure this breaks through CCing as long as you hit with the sweetspot, fast fall and l-cancel of course)
D-tilt
smash
grab

if it's someone w/out a projectile (like marth) you can try staying away or on a platform (watch out for the tipper) and letting them come to you.

Synikal: I don't think roy users want to use roy's aerials like marth's. Most acknowledge that roy is WAY different from marth (including their respective aerials). And I think you're underestimating DED. DED is what makes roy, roy (also why many roy users use roy).

[MookieRah]

Heh, funny how this turned out, cause I would fall between Synikal and ArC_man based on the DED standpoint.

I love Roy's aerials. What caused me to start playing him is that I just was goofing off with him one day against newbs and i shuffled his fairs like a crazy *****. It was fun, and I started reading up on Roy and learned other stuff such as DED.

Cause of CCing I use my DED less, but I still use it a good bit. I usually set things up with > > ^ cause i spike them on the ground and follow their tech with a smash or another DED.

I think you should use Roy's arials, DED, and d tilt a good bit of the time. All of them have their uses, and all of them can be spammed to delightful results in the right situation.

But to get back to the main subject of this post:

To Synikal:

After a f. air, I usually go for a shffld' n. air in order to avoid the inevitable CC retaliation. When that lands, I go for a grab as it gives a bit better knock back and stun than f. air and this usually throws people off their CC game.

In this instance they will more than likely shield grab. I didn't mention it, but more often then not they stick to shield grabbing shffled arials. I don't *think* you can shffl a fair and still be able to jump with nair before most people can grab yas.

D. air I use quite a bit differently than most other Roy players (do players even use this move?)

I really don't use that move all too much. It sounds like it would work pretty well from what you have said, so I will give it a try.

Lastly his d. tlit.

There are 2 people here that CC *****. One plays a Marth and the other plays a Roy. I use Roy's d tilt, A LOT, but if i d tilt them they CC and d tilt me. I try CCing, but since I am at a higher percent (cause I just took out one of their stocks and took a lil damage) they knock me around. Also, Marth's d tilt seems to be a lot more effective against CC since it knocks them downwards, so in a Marth vs Roy, I am screwed over.

But yeah, D tilt makes Roy just as much as DED in my eyes.

To ArC_man:

DED in the air (land w/ the 3rd hit down)

Now that sounds quite nifty, but it would be hard to set up, but I have a good *idea* to incorporate it. I love jumping over dudes and using DED in the opposite direction as a mind game, and I bet I can get used to the spacing to where I can land the down B right in their face at a *generally* safe distance.

D-air (I'm pretty sure this breaks through CCing as long as you hit with the sweetspot, fast fall and l-cancel of course)

Once again, like I said earlier, I am gonna experiment with this and see how I can incorporate it. Heh, since both of you guys tell me to use it, it must be good :-P

One last thing:

I can't recall, but how does neutral b hold up to CCing? I think that still knocks em around a bit, and I for one LOVE his uncharged neutral b.

[Sengin]

As do I. And I also love to jump over people and use the DED in a different direction. It can screw them up royally because you stop moving downward, plus you change direction. I also use the dair. If you can get it to hit right, you pop the opponent straight up in the air, which can lead to an fsmash. You usually can't grab because they gain control at about the height of their flight.

I've noticed that if you pull a fast-falled fair (l-cancelled) just before you hit the ground, you can grab them right away. Of course, I haven't really played anyone who CC's much, but depeneding on the character, you might be able to grab before they can counter. If you're against a marth and they don't CC, i believe you can use a delayed fastfalled fair to grab until the marth is at about 100%. I've only done it in training, because I have no one to play against right now.

[ArC_man]

Whether or not neutral b takes out CC'ers, I'm not sure of cause I never use against a grounded opponent =/. I'm guessing it should, but you still probably *shouldn't* use it because it's not instantaneous and is ez to see coming (then they can shield grab and you're in deeper trouble).

edit: i just tested, flare blade doesnt work
and scratch d-air as well

[Sengin]

not necessarily, because it has pretty good range, especially in the air (and it hits a bit below you too). And since it's the only move (besides counter) that isn't actually crap if you get a tipper. So you can hit with the tip and still do pretty much what would happen if you got the middle. And if you hit a tipper, then they shouldn't be in range for a shield-grab.

[ArC_man]

some random testing i did w/ 2 controllers and my feet XD. This is all done on a marth so yea (keep in mind i might have forgotten some or mixed some stuff up, ack, lol.. better to go test some urself)

it'll be "move(s)" - "percentage marth's CC stops working"
DED 3rd hit down - cant be CC'ed EVAR!
f-smash/4th hit DED forward - 10% or so
d-tilt/DED 3rd hit forward/f-tilt - 60% or so
2nd hit of n-air/uncharged flare blade - high 80%'s

random notes:
other aerials are all at least over 120%
DED 4th hit up can't hit crouching chars (at least not marth)
yada yada yada.. yea i forgot stuff i did like 5 min ago >_>

[SynikaL]

I don't think roy users want to use roy's aerials like marth's. Most acknowledge that roy is WAY different from marth (including their respective aerials). And I think you're underestimating DED. DED is what makes roy, roy (also why many roy users use roy).

You’re kinda missing my point.

I’m not really saying Roy players are trying to use Marth’s aerials the same way, as that’s impossible for many obvious reasons.

What I’m trying to say is, they expect to get the same flexibility out of Roy’s aerials that you get out of Marth’s. You can’t because CC’ing kills those options.

I see it all the time in vids and in person- players trying link grabs from f.air and d.air for example-when those options for Roy are far more specific than they are for Marth.

As for the point about his DED, you may very well be right, but from my experience with it, CC’ing (and not to mention shield grabbing) makes it very unsafe. I’m not saying you shouldn’t use his DED, but most players feel as though you should make Roy’s game around it, wich I disagree with. DED may “make” their Roys but it doesn’t make mine.

D-air (I'm pretty sure this breaks through CCing as long as you hit with the sweetspot, fast fall and l-cancel of course)

But the point I was trying to make was that it is d@mn hard to get the sweetspot when you shffl it. You gotta be practically inside them to get the sweetspot and in turn get enough stun out of it to not get punished. That’s why I use it differently (early execution, late fastfall).

In this instance they will more than likely shield grab. I didn't mention it, but more often then not they stick to shield grabbing shffled arials. I don't *think* you can shffl a fair and still be able to jump with nair before most people can grab yas

Ummm, but we weren’t talking about avoiding shield grabs, we were talking about avoiding CCCs. If someone intends to shield grab you, their going to shield grab you. Our problem is when we actually land our aerials, how CC’ing destroys Roys options afterwards (and gets him CCCd)

But yeah, D tilt makes Roy just as much as DED in my eyes.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Whether or not neutral b takes out CC'ers, I'm not sure of cause I never use against a grounded opponent . I'm guessing it should, but you still probably *shouldn't* use it because it's not instantaneous and is ez to see coming (then they can shield grab and you're in deeper trouble).

edit: i just tested, flare blade doesnt work
and scratch d-air as well

Aerial Neutral B is a great move in my opinion, and like Sengin said, CCing and shield grabbing shouldn’t be a problem if you’re spacing properly and it’s effectiveness isn’t too range dependant which is good.


-Syn

[MookieRah]

I've noticed that if you pull a fast-falled fair (l-cancelled) just before you hit the ground, you can grab them right away. Of course, I haven't really played anyone who CC's much, but depeneding on the character, you might be able to grab before they can counter.

I am pretty sure that also counters into a downsmash, which is pretty nice indeed.

Aerial nuetral B is bad as ****, straight up. It has deceptive range, and like Sengin said it works well at max range. It has awesome knockback at high percentages , and makes for a great edgeguarding tool too.

some random testing i did w/ 2 controllers and my feet XD

LOL, ya know there is an easier way to test this by yourself. On the 2nd player controller press up on the control stick and plug it in. It will set it off balance and make it to where it will always crouch.

[Sengin]

you could also use tape or an elastic. Heh, you know the thing where you have a G&W, Ness, and 2 Roy's on Giant Melee with 2X damage to get the max damage in one move? I had to do that by myself and tape it to send to M3D for the DVD he is making. That was fun...

[MookieRah]

....I bet I can beat that. G&W, 2 Roys, and Samus. The thing is that you counter the Samus shot twice before you get G&W to catch it.

[Sengin]

Have you tried it? I don't think it'd work. When Roy ups the damage by 150%, only his attack (when he swings his sword) changes damage. So if you were to catch the blast after 2 counters (plus when Roy counters a projectile it goes upward at an angle behind him, so you'd have to do it on DK's stage with the rafts on the river), it would have the same effect as G&W just catching the charge shot directly from Samus.

[handsockpuppet]

i can name a couple
1) >B>BvB and possibly another vB
2) Uptilt
3) SHFFL a fair, nair, or Uair
4) andy smash attack
5) grab
6) if it's Jigs or Kirby, reverse blazer
7)if they prepare to CCC, counter it
8) flare blade
9)do something scary to make them get out of the crouch by fear

[Black Waltz]

im pretty sure that after THREE YEARS we know how to do with CCs now.

[handsockpuppet]

some still people don't. that's why I brought it up again. many noobs only look at the "last month" category in the roy forums.

[BigRick]

I never really had these problems, the only approaches I use with Roy is the dashgrab, dashgrab related fakeouts and maybe air-to-air Nair/Fair.

Playing really defensive and basing your style off counter hits with retreating Fairs, dtilts, ftilts helps alot.

[handsockpuppet]

the problem with the dashgrab is it's slow and they might Dtilt or Dsmash before you can grab. and if you miss, then the lag will punish you severly.

[ihavespaceballs]

WTF Mookie you should know how to deal with CC by n..... oh 3 year old topic XFD

[Retroking2000]

ROFL @ above posts

[KevinM]

Going to have to agree with 5150 here...

Though i did laugh to see MookieRah asking for advice on Roy here =)

[handsockpuppet]

stop reviving dead threads.

ok whatever

[damage incorperated]

sh neutral b should knock them in the air