JC Grabs from Shine

[FaTmAn2k20]

I was messing around with Falco today, and I accidentally did a JC'd grab from a shine, and it got me thinking. I knew you could do it before, but I never thought about how useful it could really be. Generally, people shield the whole aerial -> reflector attack pattern, and then the Falco user just jumps away. But, with a jc'd grab, the attack wouldn't end with Falco jumping away, but rather with a grab which could lead to further comboing. This also helps to keep a constant flow of attacks on your opponent, because rather than jumping away and allowing him/her to regroup, they have to deal with another attack, keeping them on the defensive.

I guarantee this would catch your opponent off guard at least the first few times, so my question is why isn't this more commonly used? It seems like a very useful step for a Falco user to go with, and it's a good trick to have up your sleeve because it has its uses.

[Neophos]

O.o

i tested it a little, and it seems highly useful!

pwnage to you for making me realise this...
now i just gotta learn to do jc grabs more often :)

[cHaNg-sTa]

I've tried to use it more often, but falco's throw game isn't all that good. If they actually do get shined, you have about 20+ more damage you can deal instead of grabbing nothing as they're flying in the air beggin for sum beating. If they do block the whole thing and you grab them, it's nice, but definetly not as nice as the shine combos would provide. Given that it should be mixed into falco's game more often than most ppl do.

Also keep in mind that the shine may not be close enough to provide shield stun, so they can grab you quicker than you can grab them. I'm juss more used to jumping out of shine. It's safer and bigger chance for damage dealing in my opinion. But again.. it's a nice thing to do once in awhile :)

[FaTmAn2k20]

After experimenting with it some more, it seems slightly more useful with Fox than Falco (the drill shine -> JC grab is a lot more effective) but I'm still hoping that there's some more uses for this with Falco. It still seems like an important trick to have up your sleeve, just in case...

[Neophos]

i just used a half hour on learning this:

shuffled drill, shine, JC grab, uthrow, uair.

against a wall. it works wonders^^

[Suretman]

Cool, thanks for posting this fatman. I knew you could grab from shine because I was told that by Mow and he showed me, but whenever I tried it I couldn't do it cause I kept trying to just press z. Now I know how it's done of course it's jump cancelled I don't know why I didn't think of that.

[CunningKitsune]

Heh, fatman, reading this thread makes me want to integrate the jump-cancelled grab from shine into my game for some random reason. The drill shine into a jump-cancelled grab is just so much fun to do, and it is admittedly pretty effective (albeit finger-breaking... As if we Fox players needed any more of that. :p). I'm more prone to just grabbing from the waveshine, though (if I do that at all), so it'll be tough for me to integrate this into my game. My fingers often become lazy to boot, but this seems like something fun to do every once in a while.

[Vital]

actually, i've been thinking about this possibility, but never got to test it out. Mastering JCG out of shines would give you automatic grabs with fox. Simply jump at anyone who's shielding, attack, l cancel, shine, and jcg them while their shield is stunned. If this becomes more popular, fox might end up moving above sheik in the tiers just from the vast possiblities of getting guaranteed grabs everytime an opponent shields (provided you somewhat master the jcg).

Kudos to Fatman.

[Suretman]

This would also move falco up the tiers if it moves fox. I have a question though, would wd to the ground and then grabbing be just as effective? Since wd also cancels the reflector just like a jump cause you actually do jump to wd out of the reflector. Wd to the ground out of the reflector is much easier for me than this.

[Vital]

well WD to grab would word but it might take longer, since u need to push 2 buttons as opposed to tilting the control stick for a JCG.

[FaTmAn2k20]

Suretman: What kind of trouble are you having?

If anyone's having trouble with the timing, I basically just press Y and Z at the exact same time.

[Vital]

can you use the control stick like with the running JCG?

[FaTmAn2k20]

Originally posted by Vital
can you use the control stick like with the running JCG?

Yes, you can, but I just find it easiest to press Y and Z at the same time. If up + Z works for you, then by all means use it. I was just trying to help people out that might be having trouble with it.

[SynikaL]

fox might end up moving above sheik in the tiers just from the vast possiblities of getting guaranteed grabs everytime an opponent shields (provided you somewhat master the jcg).

Heck, I'm willing to bet after TG6 Fox moves ahead of Shiek regardless of weather or not this becomes useful or not. Fox just has much more ways to develop than Shiek does and he ain't broke to boot.

Anyways, nice find fatman.


-SynikaL
(geez that sounded kinda mean)

[PXTalon2000]

This is really a find? I always considered it an essential part of Falco and Fox's game... Like float canceling to grab when an opponent shields.

Yes, Falco's grab game... Is not very good... Such a shame, too, since people shield so much against him. (If Falco had a really good grab game, I think he'd be the best character in the game) Y'kinda' should get the grabs in when y'can. ChangSta said it right.

As far as Fox goes, though, aren't there some characters who make it so you can shine to JC grab without a WD? Which means, basically, that any shielded shuffle of Fox's would, theoretically, guarantee a grab, if the commands are executed well enough.

What I'm wondering, and this is really important, is whether or not shine packs enough shield stun for the opponent to be able to sidestep the grab. It might be that some characters can and some cannot. This would be a time where holding the C-stick during a shield would be quite useful. Wish I could test this.

[arg88]

I hope I dont sound like a n00b (check my title), but what is JCG/JC?

[cHaNg-sTa]

Hmm, that is interesting. But even if there is that window of oppurtunity to sidestep the shield stun, which I personally think there are 1 or 2 frames at most if not any at all, reaction time is too difficult for any character to gamble on shieldgrabbing falco/fox. Plus, if falco/fox jumps out of the shine instead of grabbing, falco/fox can now come down again for another aerial assault. Rarely any people would have practice against this technique constantly, plus no one uses it as much anyways. So no one would really read ahead and guess the grab. Even if you miss the grab as they sidestep, you probably won't get punished a whole bunch unless it's like marth.. or a jigg while ur at low percents.

[the_suicide_fox]

Your opponent can roll away. Regardless of perfect timing, they can just keep tapping left or right after you start hitting their shield. And sidestepping is the same as the rolling, but if they start to sidestep the grab just wait a bit and then do it. So basically Fox gets a near guarenteed grab if someone blocks reflector. The only defense is to roll away.

Also if you do a running reflecto-grab you can grab most characters, especially the ones that fall to the ground.

[jv3x3]

HAHA.... umm no, then no, then another no. Then a kinda. U kid urself a lot if you think this is gonna change tiers or a big deal. Its at best situational, any fox player has a lot more important (code for useful) things to work on

and edit: boo 2 the internet

[FaTmAn2k20]

Meh, I didn't mean to promote it as something that would change the world (btw I wasn't the one saying this would change the tiers at all), I just thought it was a pretty good technique that a lot of Fox/Falco players were overlooking. I also know it's not new, so there's no reason why this would change the tier list at all. I just said it was one more trick up the sleeve.

[Vital]

Originally posted by FaTmAn2k20
(btw I wasn't the one saying this would change the tiers at all)

heh, that was me. but i'm thinking that being able to do something like that constantly would add a lot more options to fox's game in terms of mindgames, etc.

[arg88]

Im not really sure if anyone heard me, but what is JC/JGC?

[FaTmAn2k20]

er yeah, sorry

JC = jump cancel

JCG = jump cancelled grab

If you press jump right before you press grab while you're in a shine, you can grab because you haven't left the ground yet. You can also do an up+b, up smash, and it also works from a shield.

EDIT: You're probably right... *takes it out* I was just thinking everything involving up could be done with a JC.

[Nephilim]

If I recall you can't up tilt out of a shield or shine.

Shield game consist solely of SH aerials out of the shield, up smash out of the shield, up b out of the shield and shield grabs. Oh and rolling and spot dodging, and if you're really technical, wavedash out to your whole arsenal.

I've never heard of up tilt or any tilt out of the shield for that matter.