Counter: Yay or Nay?

[yoshmaster5]

Counter: the only move in the game that can eliminate any attack for your own. But, is it worth the use?

Put your debate here.

I'm really not sure, it has it's pros and cons... can be hard timing, but if it works, you can interuppt a non-grab combo... but it's still risky.

anyone else's thoughts?

[Juce]

i dont think its good cuz if you use it and they dont do an attak your skrewd

[Peaches]

It's got it;s uses. . . but I would seldom ever use it.

Like every now and then an opportunity will arise that you can get an easy counter. On the other hand you could just use uptilt or ftilt for almost double the damage.

But if there is one thing that a counter will do, it is intimidate people. Even if they know that it was an easy one, or if it was just once. There will always be a little bit of intimidation. Similar to landing a rest with jiggly, but not nearly as daunting.

[hossman]

i use it usually playing against people who like to spike a lot,
whenever im coming back my opponent sometimes decides to come for a spike, so i sipply counter it
but you have to be sure he doesnt have a double jump left and cant use certain up b's like ganons or c.falcons or doesnt do that first

but i would never use it on the ground unless versing a newb like myself who only dash a attacks and stuff like that

signed,
hossman

[yoshmaster5]

Yeah, counter should be pulled out occasionally, I know a Marth player who pulls it out sometime, usually anticipating an attack while coming down from the air.

and I know it can be okay for Mind games... and if a Ganon accidently pulls out his ^B, and you are Roy... that guy is dead. otherwise... it's pretty useless at times.

[MookieRah]

Roy's counter makes a pretty sweet edgeguard, especially against those pesky space animals.

[Sengin]

God I love to do that to space animals...

And yoshmaster5, I was fighting josh15162003's ganon (Mookie, I think you tied with him and Twig for 17th at MLG) and he accidentally did his up-tilt. He said "You know, you always think of the worst possible thing that can happen, like fsmash or usmash, but then you are proven wrong by something happening to you that's even worse - counter." And I said "yep."

Counter can be very useful, but you can't use it often at all. It's great to use as an adgeguard, or against someone where they use the same combos all the time or against a character with a combo that everyone takes advantage of. Like CF, for instance. Most of the time, you can see a d-throw to knee coming, and you can counter the knee sometimes. Or a CF that likes to Shffl dairs, once you see the dair start, you can counter it.

[stilettotrap]

Marth's counter is a little useless, since you can just pivot or wd into pretty much any tilt or aerial or grab and end up getting more damage... its only real use is to escape high-altitude juggles, and that's only if your opponent is predictable about it. If he goads you into using Counter and attacks when it is no longer active, you've officially screwed yourself.

[Lunadis]

I use Marth's counter against aggresive Sheik players when I'm making a recovery. That way I can make it back regardless.

Another use is after tech chasing. You keep throwing them, but after a bit... they'll do that ever they can to stop you. On a few occassions I'll stop infront of my opponent and counter when they attack.

Other than that it's pretty useless.

[ta11geese3]

Originally posted by stilettotrap
Marth's counter is a little useless, since you can just pivot or wd into pretty much any tilt or aerial or grab and end up getting more damage... its only real use is to escape high-altitude juggles, and that's only if your opponent is predictable about it. If he goads you into using Counter and attacks when it is no longer active, you've officially screwed yourself.

Heehee it's SO much fun jumping up towards an enemy marth and watching him uselessly counter..

yeah. counter isn't very useful. My friends (who aren't that great) were very surprised that my Marth rarely countered. They were all like "omg he never parries!!"

I kept telling them that Marth works better by going offensive..

[Blind]

It's been said already but the mindgame aspect is probably what is most important. My brother will usually pull out a counter if he's been sent flying high and can come in over the stage without his triple jump, because I inevitably try to send him back out for a kill, but the counter will usually get me. After that, I always hesitate on the attack, waiting for the period to end when he can still counter but while he's still lagged from the move, and I smack him.
Now, if he were a slightly smarter Marth player ( ^_^ ) he would use that hesitation to his advantage, and swipe me with a f-air. Once the opponent is afraid of you, (like the man said earlier, simliar to Jiggly's rest) there will almost always be that moment of hesitation, because since the anticipation of the attack is usually the trigger for the counter rather than actually seeing it start up, (you'd need the reflexes of a cobra to time your counter in the middle of somebody's attack every time o_O ) the opponent hopes that you'll counter in "anticipation" and eat a delayed attack instead. Fortunately, you can use that moment and spike them back down with a d-air or start juggles of your own with repeated f-airs.
The mindgame is crucial, and if you get the idea in the opponent's head that you will counter his moves, he won't be nearly as quick off the draw to attack you every time, and from then on you can forget about the counter. Your opponent, however, will not, so you can use that hesitation to your advantage.

[PunkMonkey95]

Mainly I hardly ever counter. It turns out to do more damage to me. Than I can to them. It gives a great bit of Knockback but overall, I can dodge and just do a grab or stronger attack.

Mainly this move should be used for attacks that is nearly hard to time. I say TIME. As in Fox/Falco moves like the aerial B moves. It negates the attack and can also give you a chance to go into another attack.

And well. That's about all I use it for.

[Suretman]

It's good when your coming back to the edge and someone tries to hit you with something. Very cool looking to pull off.

[EdreesesPieces]

I only use it in the air. It's very effective for using against poeple who spike you and such. Because if you didn't use it, you'd be spiked, so there's no negative to using it. If they stop doing the spike because they think you're going to counterattack, you win, that was your whole reason for doing it in the first place.

One of my favorite mind game is to use it at a certain distance away where I know my opponent wont have enough time to attack me, they will see me do it and run at me thinking they have a free shot, and by the time they reach me i can hit them or do whatever because they won't expect it. You just have to know the correct distance.

[Ao]

I use it for when I'm in some kind of jabbing combo (like Fox's or Shiek's or something). It ends the combo and usually gives me another attack or leave to nair.

[Ty Guy]

I would have to say counter has very little value. There is almost always another option, for almost every situation. Unless you're playing someone that is in the middle of some mad fox drill shine combo, or maybe even jigglys wall of pain I would use it I would use it very little, maybe not once in a match.

Like a few others have pointed out, mindgames end up making the match, and using counter is a very questionable mindgame technique, especially when there are a few people out there that can predict exact times when the counter will be used.:eek:

When ever I use counter, and it is not successful, I tend to have a bad feeling in my stomach, and I subconsiously admit defeat(at least in a current mindgame.)

If sporadically thrown into a match, countering can be used as a taunt too...

[x_cal]

i think i counter too much with marth lol... and most of the time it screws me over, because my friends are expecting it. Yea i would say counter could only be used sparingly, otherwise you are screwed.

[Byakko Shockwave]

Well, if it's there, you might as well use it. If you use it sparingly, so your enemy doesn't know it's coming, you can throw them off, especially if you ruin one of their combos with it.

[Glide]

Counter is best used sparingly, if at all. Sometimes it's a good option to get yourself some breathing room, but otherwise it's just usually not worth it unless you're Roy, since some of those bigger hits can be reflected for some very nifty looking KOs.

[AndroidFroggy]

Roy's Counter is great- if you get spiked or such, and you have just enough time to whip it out, they can't stop! I use it against predictable enemies. It lso lags slightly less than shielding against self-projectiles(Green Missle, rollout, certain aerials)

[Peaches]

Just wait until someone gets a homerunbat, after getting hit by a Roy countered HRB, they'll just throw the bat at you.

I'd say the end story is, there's nothing wrong with throwing out counter; even in a serious match. Always prepare for the worst; also, Roy's almost always knockes back too far, Marth's is usually good for a fair followup.

[Wandering Soul]

Well, besides mindgames and damaging opponents, I use it for other things.

I'll use it alot against projectile attacks. I'll use it also when falling down to opponents. I won't hit sometimes, but since countering slows Marth's descent to the ground, it usually throws off my opponent's timing to attack.

[Zashi]

Marth's counter may be useless, but in simgle player matches with characters who use projectiles, the counter is the only thing Marth has to dodge those. Ive found out that Marth's counter can deflect almost ANY projectile, from Samus's missles to Falco's blaster.
The only things that get past it are the Plumber bros. Fireballs., because they have 2 damage types: the ball, and the fire. So its very helpful, but most of the time I dont use it.

[Peaches]

I know this thread is dead, but I just found something out about Counter that really pisses me off. If you counter a projectile
(which is a good idea usually if it's something like Samus' or Mewtwo's charge shot because of the long duration of Marth's counter and the fact that even powershielded, the shot will take a good portion of shield.) Anyways, if you do counter a projectile that keeps on going, (green shell, charge shot, hammer-head) it will not count as your kill if it hits someone (it goes at about a 40* angle once countered; looks really cool). I know that would make complete sense, but rational sometimes isn't all there in a match. And this almost made me lose a time match, even f it wasn't serioius.

And for the record, counter isn't usually the best use for dodging projectiles. neutral A is an excellent move that doesn't have lag after it. Marth's counter is like a neutral A with the lag of a dsmash. Just be smart about what you're trying to deflect, for instance you should use A on Link's boomereangs and if you're good you can use it against a uncharged needle (might be wrong on that one, but it sounds right), Samus' Missles, and especially Doc's pills. Oh, and don't counter the Mario bros fireballs, especially considering that they are setup moves usually.

[Total Chaos]

Well I think that countering comes in handy a lot of times. Yes I know that there are other alternatives then using it but it is good to counter. I can set up some combo's.

Basically I just use it to mix up the play and the flow of the game. If I use a variety of attacks, then my opponent may not be able to catch on to the tactics of my game as quickly. Just when my opponent thinks he has everything figured out you mix it up and send him back on his heels.

[ArC_man]

random thing i did a while back and thought was interesting:

aerial -> counter (against a luigi) bahaha taught him not to sex kick me.. then combo when he stops sex kicking XD

hmmm i wonder if it can actually be put to any use -.-

adding on to Peaches' post, dont counter the shadowball, cause it's not 100% counterable.. as in you won't avoid a fully charged one 100% of the time (most of the time u'll counter and it'll still hit you)

[Wandering Soul]

Counter is also good for aerial enemies. Since your opponent can't grab while in the air, you can use counter without the fear of 'Is he he going to grab or attack?'.

[Lxl]

I'm surprised that not much was said about using Counter as a mode of edgeguarding! Even for Marth, countering to edgeguard can be a very deadly tool when pulled out out of the blue when your opponent least expects it. Of course, for Marth, only use it to edgeguard when the opponent is at high percentages and *make* sure you counter a strong move (like Sheik's fair) so that it sends them too far to make it back to the stage.

Not much said about Roy's counter. It's darn strong, but your timing must also be darn good. Otherwise, as everyone else said, you're screwed :D

[Umbreon]

it's always fun to counter a random dolphin slash or firebird

[usewd4luigi]

i am not a master marth user but... i seem to find counder vertually unusable...the only time i ever use counter(if i do) is in the air and when i KNOW FOR SURE that someone is gunna do a kill move. the only way i can dertimine if someone is GOING TO ATTACK in the air is if they abuse their air moves...but yet again i stress that COUNTER IS USELESS(to me)
EDIT: because of high priority marth can use a simple hit to deflect or completely deplete projectiles:D

[Piisuke]

as I posted in another topic, Counter can be quite useful, if used correct.

Marth's counter is long, but not that damaging. Roy's counter is very short, but can be very powerful.

Just use Roy's counter when you smacked someone off stage and when they recover (for exam.: Fox with illusion) give them a f tilt, or neutral so they fall down, they will use up b and you can stand on the edge with a timed counter.