Combo Videos in Brawl [Discussion]

[GofG]

First off, if a Mod decides that it isn't right to have a discussion thread about combo videos in the Combo Video section, go right ahead and move it, I just thought it would attract more attention in here.

Now, in Melee, there were combos. There were true combos that were unavoidable, that, with no amount of DI, you could break out of. There was nothing you could do to avoid being hit by the specific sequence of moves. So arose the combo video, a compilation of all of the combos a player has pullen off.

Brawl, as the vast majority of competitive players have decided, does not have the same capacity for combos. Air dodges are now OP. Hit stun has been drastically decreased. Combos simply are few and far between. I, for one, am a Lucas main. We only have a few discovered combos that will actually work. Dthrow > Upair, Nair > ftilt. Nothing gamebreaking.

As a result, most of the combo videos that i've seen haven't really been "COMBO VIDEO"s. They have been "CLIPS OF [NAME] BEATING HIS OPPONENTS" videos. This looks much less impressive. What does this mean for the future of combo videos? Will they just be less impressive? Or will they require thousands of hours of more footage, since true combos are scarcer? Will they look less impressive?

The most famous combo video to date is Soldier of Fortune. The first clip in that video isn't a real combo. It is still, however, the most impressive stock i have ever seen. It impresses me a hell of a lot more than a video of some marth ken comboing every character in the game. Is that what combo videos will become? Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Some people seem to, though.

Discuss.

[DeliciousCake]

While I do agree that yeah, combo's are harder to come across in Brawl, some people's combo videos still look stunning even if they are just "look at me kick some ***." myRoboticClaw's upcoming combo video looks very promising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzp5GgikJuM

[homsar]

Combo videos, good ones anyway, will more show combos in the sense that they are pulled off with mind games. Can still be impressive if done correctly.

[W.Jr]

While I do agree that yeah, combo's are harder to come across in Brawl, some people's combo videos still look stunning even if they are just "look at me kick some ***." myRoboticClaw's upcoming combo video looks very promising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzp5GgikJuM

when the full video comes out it looks like it going to be sick

[G_mellowzz]

ehh, Combo means a series of attacks performed in a sequence.. so as long as you attack the opponent, predict their dodges, etc your gunna pull off a combo. Probably not an inescapable combo, but a combo nevertheless. Therefore, there will be no such thing as a "Ken combo" (at least not any time soon, i think). There wont be a combo in which EVERY xxxx player has to know, that is crucial and game breaking to xxxx character.That doesn't necessarily mean no inescapable combos though, just with brawls mechanics there prolly isnt gunna be any amazing ones.
The future of combo videos does lean towards the "x" player attacking "y" player type, but that means that each individual player will no longer be binded by 1 "godly" combo. You cant go watch a combo video, learn it by heart, and apply, and thats your new video. It looks to me like each player will have to have their own combo style, even if they may have gotten ideas or been influenced by a certain player. This may mean more variety in combo videos, and therefore it wont be the same material each time.

[Dark Sonic]

ehh, Combo means a series of attacks performed in a sequence.. so as long as you attack the opponent, predict their dodges, etc your gunna pull off a combo. Probably not an inescapable combo, but a combo nevertheless.

This is false. A combo is "A series of hits that is unblockable and inescapable after the first hit connects."

What you are refering to is a "mixup" which is succesfully predicting an opponent's reaction to being hit a certain way, and following with another hit, when they could've escaped otherwise (such as tech chasing).

The combo videos of brawl will consist mostly of mixups which, although it's not a bad thing, will not be as easily reproducable as true combos. Also, in melee most combo videos also consisted of mixups with combos inbetween.

[orintemple]

I don't think it is a bad thing as long as the video is entertaining. If you pull off a ton of combos and it looks good, then great. If its all mixups and mindgames and looks good, then thats great too.

Entertainment value and the feeling of "oh **** that guy is way better than me" is what a combo(or lack there of) video is all about. If I am impressed and entertained I'm happy.

[coreygames]

I think that no body is proficient enough to have an actual combo video. This board should be empty.

I think, more or less, there can be "gameplay" videos. Otherwise, we'll be praising people for doing things we've already seen or done ourselves except sprused up with MS Movie Maker.

[Coen]

Technically speaking, combos hardly exist anymore in Brawl. What does still exist however is following and predicting your opponent perfectly. Say you're 'comboing' someone and you get him off stage him up in the air. Now what you can do is double jump after it and try to finish, but risk missing your hit because he airdodges, or perfectly predict the airdodge and put yourself in a position in which you can punish the airdodge and still finish him off.

Other example: You Upsmash the opponent with Ike. He fall back down, you do an empty shorthop as a fake out, he airdodges, you Upsmash again and kill him.

You are likely to see these kind of situations all over combo videos in the future as predicting has become even more important than in Melee when trying to link hits.

[junkimchi]

combos exist

[Tyr_03]

I for one won't miss inescapable combos. I'm much more impressed by people being able to read their opponents and pull off consecutive hits that way. The reduction of combos is one thing about Brawl that I like over Melee. You can only watch Marth Ken comboing someone to death so many times before it gets old.

[Brightside6382]

Combo's vids should not be made in brawl. End of discussion. Why you ask?

1. Combo's aren't possible

2. Combo's aren't possible

3. Combo's aren't possible

Call it a gameplay video for all I care but keep the word "combo" as far away from brawl as possible.

[Ballistics]

As you say, the decrease of tech skill lead to a skill gap decrease in brawl.

Because of the skill gap decrease from melee to brawl, its possible for pretty much anyone to make a combo video.

Combos have essentially become a series of non-continuous successful hits on an opponent. A succession of hits will arise from making the right choice of where to place your character after you initially hit the opponent.

But the moves are no longer stringed together, therefore no combo is certain because the opponent always has the opportunity to break the combo.

Unless we haven't figured everything out yet.

[soaz]

I for one think its more impressive if someone takes a whole stock of someone by putting on alot of preasure and stuff like that. Memorizing some combo that works is less impressive to me.

[rockn&rolln]

If we played on high gravity mode there would be "combo" videos.

[CNDM]

I don't think that combo videos need to be full of true combos. Even in melee a lot of clips were follow ups or just something funny. As long as the video shows some sort of skill and is entertaining, it should qualify as a combo video

[metaXzero]

So far most combo videos in Brawl are actually "mixup" videos as someone said. While Melee combo videos were mixups leading to true combos and mixups again, Brawl is just mixups repeating. This pretty much leads to combo videos dependent only on opponents constantly making mistakes (making them look n00bish)

Also inescapable combos were fine to me as long as
1. They were not cheap infinites.
2. They were not 100% 0-death combos.

[ryanmercland]

Im becoming annoyed by the simplisity that newcomers bring to a game that was so cultured.
By newcomers I mean someone that didnt play melee professionally or for money.
New vids of lackluster performances do upset us all, so comment for them to wait until they've learned something. VS vids of noobs are equally as annoying but hey off the bat u can tell there noobs.
I think this thread is neccesary so the truth can be told to crappy vid makers to slow down, but I would hate to see brawl combo vids cease. Brawl is a solid game, so combos mixups whatever, we're all still learning this game.
Ive been playing brawl since Japan's realease so the bottom line is: some chars combo, some dont. Simple as that.

[FrostyFrosty]

i personally agree so far with the exception of the ice climbers combo vids and the one diddy vid i saw, i found myself more and more unimpressed that their werent ANY combos in these combo videos>.<!!!!!!!

[paOol]

i think combos are almost entirely gone in brawl. there is hardly any hitstun so if you're char doesn't have fast attacks with little lag, its impossible to combo. personally, i think the closest thing to true hit-stun, is diddy's bananas. once u get hit by one or trip, its un-techable (u cant do anything while ur in the tripping animation), and with glide tossing its possible to follow up with a grab or an attack. i have managed to chain some decent combos which will be going in my next combo video.

most of the "combos" you see are because the opponent doesn't know how to air dodge or tech . the only True combos aren't more than maybe 3-4 hits long.


i personally agree so far with the exception of the ice climbers combo vids and the one diddy vid i saw, i found myself more and more unimpressed that their werent ANY combos in these combo videos>.<!!!!!!!

if you're talking about my combo video, then i have to confess that there aren't many combos in it. i was aiming to release my video before the american version was out so i had to rush it and didn't have enough footage of combos. however, i am working on my 2nd video and it wont disappoint. im thinking of releasing a trailer and maybe entering it in the brawl film festival.

[sine qua non]

combos exist

Indeed, they do. Obviously much rarer but not nonexistant.


I think this thread is neccesary so the truth can be told to crappy vid makers to slow down, but I would hate to see brawl combo vids cease.


Brawl has the following factors
Much larger audience
Slightly lower age target
SD card & replay recording ease
Keep these factors in mind! Most of these inadequate Brawl combo videos are by newcomers, younger children, or just by someone because they can with these new features! Just disregard them and remain in waiting for people to spend alittle more time with the game. Melee combo videos weren't spectacular the first month the game was released.

These things take time. I firmly believe that some confounding combos will arise in Brawl. I myself have found a few 7-8 non repetitious move (including stun factor) combos with multiple characters. It is possible, during gameplay, just slightly less frequent than Melee. They may NEVER become as frequent as before, although I'd like to remain hopeful at this point.

Have patience... they will arise.

[FakeKraid]

I agree mostly with sine qua non, but it does bear pointing out that mind games so far seem much more important in Brawl than they were in Melee. Not that they didn't matter in Melee, but if Fox landed a hit on you you were going to lose a stock unless he made a controller mistake. That is not true in Brawl, or at least not as much of a factor.
As far as combos themselves go, they seem to depend as much on the DI and dodging skills of the person being combo(ed?) as on the move flow skills of the person doing the combo. That seems to me to indicate that impromptu combos are going to be much more important in Brawl than they were in Melee. If you follow your opponent's DI and punish his dodges properly, you can still render him helpless until he breaks free from your offense. I do it with all my characters very often, especially Lucario. It's just less one-sided than Melee was. Look at the bright side. Characters with no combos were nigh unplayable in Melee, but that won't be the case in Brawl.
That being said, sine qua non is right about sick videos being on their way. Just don't look for too many zero to Death combos in this game.

Oh, by the way, GM Merck, you sound like a jerk. Don't be all down on someone because they didn't money match or win tournaments in Melee. Didn't you know that this is a different game? I assume you've heard of Baltimore's Finest. You know, the crew. They could all beat me in Melee, but they can't touch me in Brawl (or at least the ones I've gotten to play since it came out can't). Just ask DK Smash if you don't believe me.
Melee skill means nothing in Brawl. Shffling is different, combos are different, DI is different, falling is different, and, my God, dodging is different. All that matters is Smash skill, which is very different from Melee skill. So curb your hubris, whatever you may have accomplished in Melee.

[coreygames]

...but if Fox landed a hit on you you were going to lose a stock unless he made a controller mistake.

WTF? That's not how it was at all. If a Fox hit you, you could have CC'ed it into a hit, DIed away depending on which one it was, tech rolled away, tech rolled towards, don't tech, etc. You didn't just get hit by Fox and lose a stock.

Anyone who thinks that never played melee.

[FakeKraid]

WTF? That's not how it was at all. If a Fox hit you, you could have CC'ed it into a hit, DIed away depending on which one it was, tech rolled away, tech rolled towards, don't tech, etc. You didn't just get hit by Fox and lose a stock.

Anyone who thinks that never played melee.

Man, I can't get away with any exaggeration, can I? I know it wasn't really that extreme, and as it so happens I played Melee quite a lot, under every possible ruleset, at every skill level. I know a lot about the game, but I was using a rhetorical device to illustrate a distinction I was making. People used to complain about how hard it was to combo me, as a matter of fact. Obviously there were things you could do, or else people wouldn't have played characters other than Fox. But it was still a much more dangerous situation for Fox to land a hit on you in Melee than any situation you can be in in Brawl. That's all I was saying.

I guess I just have to say exactly what I mean in the most scientific possible terms, to avoid the slightest chance that my point will be ignored because I used a rhetorical device that was not literally true in illustrating it. Man...:urg:

[sine qua non]

Serves you right for establishing an unembroidered veracity with embroidered hallucinations, you hippie!

Kraid ftl.

(Btw, I agree with Kraid's entire posts; especially the second half)

[Ballistics]

patience everyone, a brawl master will arise soon enough

[FakeKraid]

Kraid ftl.

Uh, hey. I'm really sorry, but I'm totally behind on my txt abbrvs. What does "ftl" mean? Not that I think you're insulting me or anything, I'm just curious.

And, by the way, I'm not nearly as upset as I make myself sound in my last post either. I actually find it amusing how eager some people are to "score a point" against other posters on this site. If somebody really gets under my skin, I'll just challenge them to a money match and make them pay for it in cold, hard cash. :p

[metaXzero]

^^I think ftl means "For the lose" opposite to ftw "For the win".

Correct me if I am wrong.

[ChRed2AKrisp]

People seem to think that scrubs and their lack of actual combos in their "combo" videos means combos are rare or unheard of. Yes, combos have been lessened. But just as in melee, some characters are more combo affiliated than others. Mario is a combo beast in this game. I'll probably make a combo vid with him, consisting mostly of combos at some point. We do have to remember that lots of combo videos in melee didn't consist entirely of combos either. A lot of them were just cool things, or smart plays.

But Mario, luigi, meta knight, and ROB are all easy combo whores, and other chars can get them as well. Mario just happens to be my favorite, and prolly the easiest to do it with if you know what you're doing. Uair, utilt, dair, dthrow at low percents, etc. To name a few, shorthop dair double jump uair, uair, continue. I have uair uair uair fair spike recorded. Dthrow utilt, utilt, uair uair fsmash. All impossible for the person to get out of. I know because he informed me that in addition to DI, he tried both timing and mashing air dodge.

[FakeKraid]

Actually, speaking of Mario combos, my friend comboed Jank's Shiek with Mario's utilt after a dthrow up to 70-some percent, then finished with a perfect fsmash for a kill on Yoshi's Island. You're right. Against heavy (read: fast falling) characters, Mario is a beast for combos.

Most characters have short combos, of course. Link, for instance, can jump in with a nair, then utilt and follow with a bair against a number of characters.
Dedede, apart from the obvious CG BS, can combo nair into itself three or four times and then do a fair against floaty characters who are low%.
Lucario can combo a fair into a landing nair, then two utilts and whatever air you want (except bair, and maybe dair, depending on how far up they go, which in turn depends both on your damage and theirs).
Wolf can combo a landing nair into an utilt into a midair down-B into a landing grab against every character I have tried it against.
(And, in case you're wondering, I have either done these myself or had them done to me in real battle situations, and verified that if they are not combos, then they are so close that it doesn't matter)

Again, you're right--the game does have combos; it's just that the enhanced defensive measures (mostly) prevent the extended combos of Melee and Smash 64. Of course, any combo can be continued if you successfully anticipate your opponent's reaction, a skill that goes by a much higher premium in Brawl than in any other Smash (at least in my experience, and not to say that it wasn't important at all in them).

Sorry for the long post, but people keep burning me for not saying everything as exactly as it can possibly be said, so that's what I'm doing.