Why Falcon is no longer the sauce [Archive]

LeeHarris

03-03-2008, 09:08 AM

First, I am going to be serious:

Falcon has never had quick moves (with a few exceptions). L canceling fixed this problem by killing his landing lag. Thanks to that he had an amazing aerial game combined with his fast running speed.

Now, not only were his positives traits removed but his mediocre ones were made even worse. In order to transition with characters from Melee to Brawl you had to quit playing them Melee style and start playing them Brawl style. The thing is, Falcon's Melee and Brawl style are both awful. His raptor boost's priority is very bad, his running speed is nothing special now, his grabs don't kill and they can't combo, his aerial priority is worse, his smash attacks' power has been reduced, his tilts are weaker (and I think slower), and his recovery still sucks. In Brawl a lot of moves that were not previously viable became more useful. This is not the case with Falcon. His Falcon Punch is still way too slow, his Falcon kick is weak, and his upB is very predictable.

I hope someone proves me wrong, but as a Melee Falcon main this is my analysis. It makes me very sad and I wish it weren't true. He doesn't even deserve his hard nipples anymore.

Secondly:

http://www.wifiwars.com/images/captainfalconfails.jpg

A2ZOMG

03-03-2008, 09:49 AM

First, I am going to be serious:

Falcon has never had quick moves (with a few exceptions). L canceling fixed this problem by killing his landing lag. Thanks to that he had an amazing aerial game combined with his fast running speed.FINALLY! A person like me who doesn't fall for the misconception that OMG FALCON HAS SUPER FAST ATTACKS!

Captain Falcon has like only three legitimately fast attacks. His Jab, N-air, and U-air, and regardless all of his attacks generally come out slower than the respective attacks of almost all other characters. This is especially true of his specials, Smashes, his F-air, and D-air.

I'm glad you're a smart man. You get my approval.

Now, not only were his positives traits removed but his mediocre ones were made even worse. In order to transition with characters from Melee to Brawl you had to quit playing them Melee style and start playing them Brawl style. The thing is, Falcon's Melee and Brawl style are both awful. His raptor boost's priority is very bad, his running speed is nothing special now, his grabs don't kill and they can't combo, his aerial priority is worse, his smash attacks' power has been reduced, his tilts are weaker (and I think slower), and his recovery still sucks. In Brawl a lot of moves that were not previously viable became more useful. This is not the case with Falcon. His Falcon Punch is still way too slow, his Falcon kick is weak, and his upB is very predictable.Darn it! I was hoping that they would buff the strength of the Falcon Kick. I thought that was the trend. =(

I hope someone proves me wrong, but as a Melee Falcon main this is my analysis. It makes me very sad and I wish it weren't true. He doesn't even deserve his hard nipples anymore.I use low tier characters. Once I get the game, I'll pick up characters that appear to be doing badly (aside from brushing up my mains and secondaries) and see if I can discover a playstyle for them.

Secondly:

http://www.wifiwars.com/images/captainfalconfails.jpghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tim5nU3DwIE

LeeHarris

03-03-2008, 09:57 AM

And his neutral A combo no longer has any knockback.

I bid farewell to thee "Gentleman"...

DarkKyanite

03-03-2008, 10:20 AM

sakurai tested all the chars for longer than u can ever imagine
he played 3 chars at a time to decide how every single move's hitbox, landing lag, KB, etc... should be

and he's the father and god of smash bros.
i have faith in him
that's all
besides
i belive there's a lot going on with the new falcon style
melee falcon wasn't borned in 1 month

Sirhc

03-03-2008, 10:24 AM

gringo66

03-03-2008, 10:29 AM

besides
i belive there's a lot going on with the new falcon style
melee falcon wasn't borned in 1 month

no. falcons style wasnt born or brought together in one month. neither was melee itself. it took a long process of discoveries and plenty of thought and thinking of what move is good for what. People think that brawl is garbage because melee is at its prime and brawl just began. there are many new discoveries to be made and this will make brawl the best game to ever be introduced in the gaming industry. that is if its not already. but yea anyways, i have faith in falcon and he will own. NASTY STYLE!

A2ZOMG

03-03-2008, 11:26 AM

No, think of it this way. Sakurai was probably displeased that we managed to develop such an unbalanced tier system. Basically, the obvious good thing for him to do was to make the good characters worse. Falcon was one such character considered pretty darn broken in Melee for his amazing combos. By nerfing him along with the other few broken characters, this would make it easier for many more“worse” characters to win against him, which ultimately appeals to a larger group of players.

Only character left we need to be concerned about is Marth. >_>

DarkKyanite

03-03-2008, 11:43 AM

that's what happen when u doubt the guy who gave us bro 64 and melee
but feel free to have ur own opinion

Skybent

03-03-2008, 11:56 AM

gotta stay loyal to falcon through thick and thin. :] if anything this'll just make it more of a challenge to use him on brawl. and im down for that. whatever the circumstances ive been using falcon too long to just give him up :/. but true, he does seem fairly bad compared to how much other charecters got buffed up in brawl. its just dissapointing. but in time we'll discover new ways to use him.

mog87

03-03-2008, 11:58 AM

falcon is straight *** and cant kill unless your teammate is grabbing. In short dont waste your time with falcon unless you like alter the gravity ratio.

Reaver197

03-03-2008, 01:19 PM

I have to say Lee that I agree on the whole but for a couple of things. I don't really think Falcon's recovery is terrible, it's good at least and might actually be one of the better ones in the game. Also, his utilt does pretty
decent knockback, enough to kill as you reach the 100s in damage, but it does still have that bit of activation time that his moves seem to take. I don't know how useful or useless the Falcon Kick is now, for me, the jury is still out on that.

However, raptor boost, priority, grabs (and even to grab people is worse, it's very short so you can't shield grab after attacks most of the time), and his speed definitely took a hit. I also find it kind of frustrating that it's very difficult to use some of his moves for the way that they were clearly meant to be used, like using his dair to meteor.

Mike Hawk

03-03-2008, 03:40 PM

its easier to ***** than to fight. i prefer to fight and find some way to use the C man, also i believe i found my style and i've been doing really good since then.

LeeHarris

03-03-2008, 04:14 PM

no. falcons style wasnt born or brought together in one month. neither was melee itself. it took a long process of discoveries and plenty of thought and thinking of what move is good for what. People think that brawl is garbage because melee is at its prime and brawl just began. there are many new discoveries to be made and this will make brawl the best game to ever be introduced in the gaming industry. that is if its not already. but yea anyways, i have faith in falcon and he will own. NASTY STYLE!

You act like I don't like Brawl. I am obsessed with Brawl. I think it is an amazing game and I love many characters. I just so happen to think Falcon is crap now.

Winnar

03-03-2008, 04:22 PM

Eh, he's not the best now, I'll give you that.

I dunno, I can't shake the feeling when I play as him that there are some good combos to be had. I just can't seem to find them yet.

We'll see what the future brings I guess. At any rate, if Captain Falcon wants to wear an ascot, Captain Falcon wears a ****ing ascot. Srsly, just think about it. What is the Falcon Punch of fashion? Ascots! Instant win.

Hm...looks more like a scarf to me...

Reaver197

03-03-2008, 04:31 PM

Lee, who do you generally have huge trouble against? Though I haven't played against every character yet (especially not a well-played one), I find that Metaknight, Toon Link, and Zero Suit Samus seem to be able to just wreck Falcon. I imagine Pit might be able to as well, but I haven't played a Pit yet.

rageagainst

03-03-2008, 04:40 PM

aw why so grim everyone, falcon isn't all that bad. In melee he was the "sauce" if by sauce you mean broken, he had his nerf coming, for crying out loud Stevie Wonder saw the nerfbat coming.

He'll fare well against the brawl cast (mabye not snake and samus) as those chars you say that recieved "buffs" where chars THAT NEEDED BUFFS! BADLY! Bowser sucked horribly in melee, thus they gave him a resonably large buff, same with Zelda, Kirby, Yoshi (his DJC is out but everything else about his is better), Link, Young/Toon Link, and others i forgot to list. They were BAD chars in melee now they're more balanced, you don't need to worry about any of them (Except toon link, they badly overbuffed him) even if they were buffed because they were bad before the buff.

.kR0

03-03-2008, 04:42 PM

ZSS does not "wreck" falcon. Only in battlefield.
Meta, Pit, Toon, Marth and Wolf would wreck falcon. But then those characters kill almost every other character anyways.

rageagainst

03-04-2008, 02:48 AM

ZSS does not "wreck" falcon. Only in battlefield.
Meta, Pit, Toon, Marth and Wolf would wreck falcon. But then those characters kill almost every other character anyways.

nah i woudn't call all of those characters imbalanced, if "the rest of the cast" were average, Meta and Pit would be above average, with meta leaning more towards average, while Wolf would be PART of average due to his weak recovery and "fox but weaker" b moves. Fox would be above average, and mabye falco.

of the chars you posted, the only ones that are significantly better than "the rest" (which includes falcon) are Toon Link and Marth, not to the point of it bieng something like Melee Sheik vs. a Mid-tier, since they arn't broken but they ARE noticeably tough matchups for any character.

BerDinosaur

03-04-2008, 02:52 AM

With time, I'm sure dedicated falcon mainers could sauce the sauce back into CFalcon. Sure he'll be difficult to master and still have flaws that can't be worked around, but I believe Falcon will have his owning moments in the future.

</Optimism>

hippochinfat!!

03-04-2008, 05:29 PM

thats wut ur mum sed in bed last nite!!!

Winnar

03-04-2008, 05:31 PM

OrlanduEX

03-04-2008, 07:50 PM

I think that a lot of people in this thread are suffering from blind optimism.

There is considerable evidence to suggest that C. Falcon is now worse than he was before. All signs point to this conclusion.
There is nothing to suggest that he is as good as before or that he is good at all, yet everyone decides to ignore the facts and say that he's still awesome.
No one is saying that C. Falcon isn't cool or that he can't be played at a competitive level. Harris is just making the point, based on extensive competitive play, that C.Falcon is worse than before. I don't think he needs to play the game for a year to come to that conclusion.

technomancer

03-04-2008, 10:57 PM

LeeHarris

03-04-2008, 11:08 PM

This entire thread fails on an extreme level; good smash debates are fueled with evidence from good smash players. There are no particularly good players in this thread, nor is there much evidence.

Captain Falcon isn't the same character as before, neither is Fox or Falco, but I see a LOT of potential in these characters that is being blatantly overlooked in favor of premature ejaculation on the newcomers.

Both I and the many pro smashers from south Texas agree that Falcon is awful now. Instead of making yourself look silly by trying to insult everyone you should post some counter points. My guess is that you don't have any.

All I keep hearing is that he has potential. Can someone please explain this to me? I have given clear, concise points as to why Falcon is no longer "good" and I have yet to see any counter argument except "he has potential."

Anyone? Does no one here think ascots are cool?

BerDinosaur

03-04-2008, 11:57 PM

DarkKyanite

03-05-2008, 12:03 AM

well, like i said b4, the game's only been out for a month or so
no one has reached any character's full potential yet
obviously we can't bring out any evidence since most of us don't even have the game yet.
if you watch some tournament videos that's from way back then, when melee was just released. many bro 64 bros were playing extremely like how they played in bro 64 and u know how it would look like.
i believe you guys tested him and end up with this conclusion, but that's just exactly what azen, isai were when they just started playing melee.
give brawl a year or 2, or at least wait until everyone has brawl lol.
and we'll start to c brawl style forming its shape. =)

LeeHarris

03-05-2008, 03:31 AM

Well, all I can provide is a few videos. I guess you can consider this "evidence" that falcon isn't all horrible. I'm not all that sure if these videos are very reliable and I'm sure some people have already seen these, but its still worth looking at IMO.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bi_wBtdYRDM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HWYvGzUq5B8

That first video is against a really bad player and the second one is full of combos that are very easily escapable.

These are just my observations from playing the game. Right now I have played and owned the game for longer than 99.9999% of the people here on SmashBoards (I was playing it the evening of the JP release day!). Of course you can take them with a grain of salt because I've only had the game for a little over a month, but I've really really tried to make him "good" and I just can't do it. The other characters seem to wipe the floor with him.

WastingPenguins

03-05-2008, 03:53 AM

That first video is against a really bad player and the second one is full of combos that are very easily escapable.

Yeah, I don't know what the deal is with Chillin's mini combo-video there. At least half the combos in it begin with fB, and it's pretty apparent in every other video ever that fB is NOT a move that leads to absolutely anything.

Reaver197

03-05-2008, 03:58 AM

I'll add that Falcon isn't terrible. He's just very middle tier now, with no real clear strengths and a definite ceiling to how well he can do. He can do fine against certain characters, but against others, especially those with disjointed hitboxes or small models, Falcon is going to have a rough time. His priority is pretty bad now, the only exception to that is his uair, and the range for most of his aerials has been diminished, especially noticeable for the knee and nair.

Unfortunately, also, Falcon's "combos" are usually very escapable by virtue of how early you can airdodge after being hit. Other characters seem to have guarantees for a certain string of combos, or at least have ways of hitting you that are very hard to escape and dodge. Falcon doesn't really have anything like that. He's not that hard to get out of and generally has a difficult time keeping people in a string of hits.

technomancer

03-05-2008, 07:56 AM

Both I and the many pro smashers from south Texas agree that Falcon is awful now. Instead of making yourself look silly by trying to insult everyone you should post some counter points. My guess is that you don't have any.

All I keep hearing is that he has potential. Can someone please explain this to me? I have given clear, concise points as to why Falcon is no longer "good" and I have yet to see any counter argument except "he has potential."

Anyone? Does no one here think ascots are cool?

How about G-Reg and Chillin's and my threads on the subject, easily available by hitting the back button.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148650

Wait didn't Hylian just own your whole state?

LeeHarris

03-05-2008, 08:05 AM

How about G-Reg and Chillin's and my threads on the subject, easily available by hitting the back button.

Hahaha, I'm glad I looked.

1-He's Captain Falcon
2-Auto edge-grab is amazingly rape with Falcon
3-Aerial Side-B got a major buff and will see plenty of cool new uses
4-Chain grabbing is for the most part out
5-Marth jumps a little higher when he f-airs (honk if you know how much that sucks for poor Marth)
6-Up-air looks relatively unchanged and can still combo into knee
7-Throws don't combo as well, except for Falcon's awesome down throw
8-All those awesome new recoveries aren't going to mean **** when I knee you in the face
9-Bowser might be top tier and if so then Falcon will automatically be top of the tier list

Great counterpoints man.

Allow me to pick apart this fine analysis of Falcon.

3 - His aerial side B is still about as useless as it was before. It has crappy priority and if someone is in the position to be hit by it you are better off kneeing them.
6 - Rarely can you combo his uair into anything. Hit stun is so small now that it makes it nearly impossible.
7 - It doesn't combo well at all.

cubaisdeath

03-06-2008, 06:22 PM

Allow me to pick apart this fine analysis of Falcon.

3 - His aerial side B is still about as useless as it was before. It has crappy priority and if someone is in the position to be hit by it you are better off kneeing them.
6 - Rarely can you combo his uair into anything. Hit stun is so small now that it makes it nearly impossible.
7 - It doesn't combo well at all.

well, I was never a falcon main in any game, but I did alt him, so I know how to play him more or less. I will admit that in the beginning, I hated brawl falcon. But now that I play him almost as much as my main, I believe he is going to be better than what most people think. I have been doing several momentum experiments with him, and I found that he slides more than almost every character in the game, making his mindgames really solid. If you uair or bair right before you land, you can apply the momentum from those attacks to slide across whole platforms, making his movements quicker on the ground.

now to counter your points. NOTE: these are only my personal opinions.

His aerial raptor boost is better than the ground version. I find it better to short hop raptor boost so it spikes them into the ground, and pops them up, thus creating combo potential for your uairs or whatever you feel like using as a follow up.

Falcon's uair is extremely usefull, and does combo if you hit with the right part. its all in the timing. here is an example: Falcon Uair Combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GowBED9e14&feature=related).

Down throw combos more than you think, but its entirely character dependent. you're better off just tech chasing or throwing out a nair. you can actually dthrow knee characters with a certain weight. it does have some combo potential, you just need to play with him more, thats all.

I hope this was at least semi-helpful to the least.

Runeblade279

03-06-2008, 08:22 PM

well, I was never a falcon main in any game, but I did alt him, so I know how to play him more or less. I will admit that in the beginning, I hated brawl falcon. But now that I play him almost as much as my main, I believe he is going to be better than what most people think. I have been doing several momentum experiments with him, and I found that he slides more than almost every character in the game, making his mindgames really solid. If you uair or bair right before you land, you can apply the momentum from those attacks to slide across whole platforms, making his movements quicker on the ground.

now to counter your points. NOTE: these are only my personal opinions.

His aerial raptor boost is better than the ground version. I find it better to short hop raptor boost so it spikes them into the ground, and pops them up, thus creating combo potential for your uairs or whatever you feel like using as a follow up.

Falcon's uair is extremely usefull, and does combo if you hit with the right part. its all in the timing. here is an example: Falcon Uair Combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GowBED9e14&feature=related).

Down throw combos more than you think, but its entirely character dependent. you're better off just tech chasing or throwing out a nair. you can actually dthrow knee characters with a certain weight. it does have some combo potential, you just need to play with him more, thats all.

I hope this was at least semi-helpful to the least.

Reaver197 informed me that comboing off a short hopped Raptor Boost was nearly impossible. Was he mistaken? Cause that would be tight. (almost as tight as short hopping gdorf's new side+b. o.o)

As for the slide thing, do you mean that you can do a bair or uair right before the ground and you'll slide really far? Or am I missing something?

I've seen the *****in' uair combos from the few falcon brawl vids already; can't wait to try for myself in a few days.

So Dthrow > knee DOES work on some characters? If you or someone else would like to do a test? Or I could just wait, but I'm impatient. =(

.kR0

03-06-2008, 09:00 PM

Anytime you see an upair->knee, dthrow->knee, the opponent made a mistake.

Thats why the combo video that some dude posted in the boards suck because its only a compilation of times when the opponent ****ed up. They're not combos.

AKC12

03-06-2008, 09:19 PM

Smashes didn't seem to be nerfed that much. Also his ADA if the hit is a non spike is very strong, could kill at low 100% at the edge. I didn't think tilts changed speeds, or power. Falcon still second fastest in speed, faster than Fox by a good margin. Falcon Kick was never meant to be that strong, just a different option to use on approaching enemies. Falcon punch speed is fine, and with turn around, you should get a hit once in a while. His grab was never meant to kill in Melee, so there really shouldn't be any complaints... We all know he was nerfed, mostly from the lack of L cancel, but can't we for once talk about what's good about the new Falcon?

ChadWordern

03-06-2008, 09:55 PM

Captain Falcon,

WILL ALWAYS be Captain Falcon.

TheManaLord

03-06-2008, 11:13 PM

lol Sakurai knows nothing about competitive smash and he certainly can't balance for it. he balances for ffa with items on very high on new pork city.

Blarfenzo

03-06-2008, 11:25 PM

The main reason why Falcon is not as manly anymore is because of the scarf, just look at it.

HesJustABoy

03-07-2008, 01:49 AM

WAIT AND SEE, I WILL MAKE FALCON GOOD, MARK MY WORDS! MARCH 9th PWNAGHE

nintengod

03-10-2008, 09:06 AM