NikoK's Impressions of Peach in SSBB

[Niko_K]

This is a crosspost from another thread I posted in but I feel it deserves some attention and discussion.

Smashes: Fsmash and Usmash are both great killing moves, you just need to know how to set them both up. Usmash is best used either by hyphen smashing or getting them to land ontop of it. Fsmash usually kills around 110-140 depending on which weapon pulls out. Also whoever says Dsmash is useless now is retarded, they are just used to its ridiculous range, if you get it in range you can easily do at least 10 damage and the knockback is very low so you can combo out of it. Don't listen to all the negative talkers.

Aerials: Fair has been greatly buffed, you can kill with fair anywhere from 95-150 depending on the character, It has nearly no landing lag and is one of peaches best attacks, Bair has two hitboxes now and can deliver 20+ damage if both hitboxes hit. It is also a killing move and a great edgeguard. If your floating and bair THEN land in the direction you are bairing, you will gain a lot of ditance on the stage and once again this move has barely any landing lag. Nair has been nerfed in knockback and startup time and isn't too good of an option compared to a lot of your other moves, but due to diminshing knockbacks and attack percentages you can still use this move to mix it up. Uair just had ridiculous range and it great when any character is above you, it does decent damage and can KO an opponent around 130. Dair is a great approach and the 4th kick sends them up high enough for you to connect with a uair at medium percentages. at lower percentages you can connect with any other aerial. It is also great for edge guarding someone at high percentages. I love to dair and then air dodge into a shield grab at low percentages.

Tilts: Ftilt is just amazing. It has amazing range from right above peach to a decent distance in front of her. It swipes like this ) and it sends the character above your head so you can connect with Usmash, reverse grab, reverse slaps and Fsmash all at lower percents. At mid percents it connects well into Utilt, and at higher percents you can jump up for your ridiculous Uair. Her Dtilt also has very good range and is great when someone is dash attacking out or trying to Shield Cancel Grab you. Utilt has more range than your Usmash and is great for hitting people from underneath platforms or in ways I mentioned in earlier connections.

Jabs: The amount of knockback is actually awesome for this move since it has the least start up lag out of all of her moves, it is a great way to keep your opponent at a distance giving you a bit more time to stratagize.

Specials: Up B now is a killing move at higher percentages (150-190 depending on character) and you can juggle your opponent in the air with it...the timing is just different from melee. Also her turnips are absolutely amazing now that we have glide tossing and dodge dropping. The turnips have their own metagame now. You can either spam turnips at them, glide toss turnips towards them if they are in front of you, or my favorite when they are infront of you AND above you glide toss a turnip upwards. The peach bomber is absolutely amazing for chasing techs rolls and recovery from the edge. Plus toad is actually useful now! Just keep in mind the bit of start up lag.

Throws: Fthrow has been greatly nerfed but that doesn't matter, you can combo with dthrow. Dthrow > Ftilt or Dthrow >Utilt works great at lower percentages. During mid percentages dthrow to Uair works great since Uairs range is so ridiculous. Also Uthrow also has some combo ability at low to mid percentages...all involving ftilt, Uair, Usmash and even Bair.

OVERALL THOUGHTS: It's a whole new ball game with peach now. You must develop new habits while mixing it in with some of the older ones that still seem to work. Each move has a different usage now and you must discover your own way of playing her.

<3 Peach

[Snakeee]

Great job I was thinking of making something like this myself, but you did it first so thats fine. Yeah, most of the moves that work now are new things. The majority of the ones that worked before will not now.

[Miller]

Good job Niko, represent out crew ;)

[airgemini]

Yeah thanks!
Everytime I hear positive things about Peach it makes me doubt all of these other claims and such..

[Master Peach]

Nice. This is great stuff, this will be good for when I start playing play brawl. Thx. Let's hope the negative talkers don't come and mess this Thread up.

[Niko_K]

I will be in close contact with a mod if the scenario arises. I hope I have helped the peach community as much as I could!

[Master Peach]

I will be in close contact with a mod if the scenario arises. I hope I have helped the peach community as much as I could!

Your doing a great job keep it up.

[rm88]

Great! ^^ Peach is not meant to be played like her Melee counterpart, persisting on doing it is simply stupid.

[Niko_K]

Thanks for the new signature rm88 ;)

[Dark.Pch]

You sir.........speak wisdom.

[Yuna]

Smashes: Fsmash and Usmash are both great killing moves, you just need to know how to set them both up. Usmash is best used either by hyphen smashing or getting them to land ontop of it. Fsmash usually kills around 110-140 depending on which weapon pulls out. Also whoever says Dsmash is useless now is retarded, they are just used to its ridiculous range, if you get it in range you can easily do at least 10 damage and the knockback is very low so you can combo out of it. Don't listen to all the negative talkers.
Fsmash will never kill at 110% unless you mean if they have 110% before the Fsmash, it's the Frying Pan, it's been charged (possibly fully) and you're playing on a tiny stage. A fully charged Fsmash doesn't kill on more "normal" stages 'til 130%. And it's the strongest Fsmash.

Dsmash apparently has the same range. It's just that the hitbox is different and almost non-existent above the ground. Wow, it can do 10% of damage, great! And you can, um combo from it? Don't forget that one hit (which is also pretty common) will only do 4%. 10% or so means it has to hit twice or three times (if the move is stale or something). You can combo from it, sure, but since Peach's fast moves all inflict around 14-17% of damage, your combo will at most do 27% or so of damage... which is crap considering she needs 150% to kill with anything other than a charged Frying Pan.

And this is if they don't DI. If they DI the Dsmash, they'll still get out of it... and be able to hit you since there's less hitstun now. DI:ed Dsmash = You eat an aerial (possibly).

Meanwhile, Marth can still Tipper you to death at ridiculously low %s, Lucas' Upsmash kills you at, like, 90%, Fox's Upsmash at 120% (and you can combo into it from Dair -> U-tilt) and Olimar's smashes at 110%.

She's not just bad because she's weak. She's bad because there are so many characters much better than her.


Aerials: Fair has been greatly buffed, you can kill with fair anywhere from 95-150 depending on the character, It has nearly no landing lag and is one of peaches best attacks, Bair has two hitboxes now and can deliver 20+ damage if both hitboxes hit. It is also a killing move and a great edgeguard. If your floating and bair THEN land in the direction you are bairing, you will gain a lot of ditance on the stage and once again this move has barely any landing lag. Nair has been nerfed in knockback and startup time and isn't too good of an option compared to a lot of your other moves, but due to diminshing knockbacks and attack percentages you can still use this move to mix it up. Uair just had ridiculous range and it great when any character is above you, it does decent damage and can KO an opponent around 130. Dair is a great approach and the 4th kick sends them up high enough for you to connect with a uair at medium percentages. at lower percentages you can connect with any other aerial. It is also great for edge guarding someone at high percentages. I love to dair and then air dodge into a shield grab at low percentages.
Fair cannot and will never kill anyone at 95%. I mean, in Melee, it could kill Jigglypuff if you were near the edge of Final Destination if the Jigglypuff didn't DI.

But that's not how we measure a move's strength ("Against crappy players who do not DI and while being close to the edge"). It indeed kills around 140-150% (with DI).

Nair has the same startup, I believe. The hitbox is just so sucky you think it's slower since the hitbox isn't constant. It has less knockback, damage and priority.

Dair is a multi-hit. As RyokoYaksha or some other player already established, all multi-hit attacks can be tap-DI:ed out of it. They can tap-DI out of it (pretty easily) and aerial you in the face especially since the last hit is kinda laggy. It will also never guarantee you an Upair at "medium percentages" (50%?) since they fly too far, her 2nd jump is too sucky, her Uair can't reach that far and, hey, DI (which isn't hard considering the last hit comes out after such a long time from when it started).


Tilts: Ftilt is just amazing. It has amazing range from right above peach to a decent distance in front of her. It swipes like this ) and it sends the character above your head so you can connect with Usmash, reverse grab, reverse slaps and Fsmash all at lower percents. At mid percents it connects well into Utilt, and at higher percents you can jump up for your ridiculous Uair. Her Dtilt also has very good range and is great when someone is dash attacking out or trying to Shield Cancel Grab you. Utilt has more range than your Usmash and is great for hitting people from underneath platforms or in ways I mentioned in earlier connections.
Most moves can combo at low %s. What makes a good combo move is one that works at medium to high percentages as well. F-tilt does not guarantee an Usmash if they I and/or airdodge. Reverse slaps?! Come on!

Have you tried any of these things against actually human players who DI, wiggle, Tap-DI, aerial, airdodge, 2nd jump or anything else to get out of combos? U-tilt has more range (than Usmash), is faster, but the hitbox stays out for a shorter time and it lags more (IIRC).


Jabs: The amount of knockback is actually awesome for this move since it has the least start up lag out of all of her moves, it is a great way to keep your opponent at a distance giving you a bit more time to stratagize.
Yeah, too bad Peach can't combo from them into anything anymore because if you try to do anything after the 1st jab (like a Smash or a tilt), the game will force you to do the 2nd jab and the game has less hitstun so you can't even run forward into a grab anymore. And her jabs do amazingly little damage. It's still a good and fast way to keep enemies at bay, though.


Specials: Up B now is a killing move at higher percentages (150-190 depending on character) and you can juggle your opponent in the air with it...the timing is just different from melee. Also her turnips are absolutely amazing now that we have glide tossing and dodge dropping. The turnips have their own metagame now. You can either spam turnips at them, glide toss turnips towards them if they are in front of you, or my favorite when they are infront of you AND above you glide toss a turnip upwards. The peach bomber is absolutely amazing for chasing techs rolls and recovery from the edge. Plus toad is actually useful now! Just keep in mind the bit of start up lag.
No you can't (juggle). Peach falls amazingly slow now with the umbrella out (and even with it down) so the opponents can easily DI/fastfall/2nd jump/hit you out of it. Less hitstun, remember?

Her turnips are also amazingly bad now because dash throwing, normal throwing, smash throwing and aerial throwing them ahve nerfed ranges. The Bob-omb, the Grand-father turnip, the 16%:er and the Beam-sword (at least hers specifically) are all über-nerfed. I'm not sure about Mr. Saturn. They're also easier to catch and shield now because not only do they not travel as far, they don't travel as fast anymore.

Toad and Peach Bomber are better, yes.


Throws: Fthrow has been greatly nerfed but that doesn't matter, you can combo with dthrow. Dthrow > Ftilt or Dthrow >Utilt works great at lower percentages. During mid percentages dthrow to Uair works great since Uairs range is so ridiculous. Also Uthrow also has some combo ability at low to mid percentages...all involving ftilt, Uair, Usmash and even Bair.
Dthrow does not combo with DI into 2nd jump or whatever (and how hard is it to DI the Dthrow? It's still as slow as in Melee) and starting at mid-percentages (50-75%), you don't even have to DI! At most, it'll combo at ridiculously low %s (it comboed better in Melee... and you could tech chase).

Please, test these things about in Training Mode against a human player before saying "This combo works!" and "This move kills at X percent!".

[PRINCESS PEACH777]

good job atleast someone says a good thing about her -.-

[SMASH_Peach]

Best review out there 8D

[Niko_K]

Yuna, I do test all the things I post, you must think really low of me in order to rip apart my entire post. What makes you think I wouldn't test these things, I've had the game for nearly a month now. I'm positive what I've posted works. Also when I say X move kills at X percent....it means when the character is at X percent...when you hit them with X move, they will die.

I play against players who are very technical in melee and are progressing very nicely in brawl, of course they 2nd jump, air dodge etc.

Please, just give up on trying to know it all about brawl.

[Snakeee]

Fsmash will never kill at 110% unless you mean if they have 110% before the Fsmash, it's the Frying Pan, it's been charged (possibly fully) and you're playing on a tiny stage. A fully charged Fsmash doesn't kill on more "normal" stages 'til 130%. And it's the strongest Fsmash.

This depends where you are on the stage and who you're hitting with it, but it can work at that percentage. Also, if it's a small stage, then what would the frying pan matter? All that has to do with is the height of the ceiling.


Dsmash apparently has the same range. It's just that the hitbox is different and almost non-existent above the ground. Wow, it can do 10% of damage, great! And you can, um combo from it? Don't forget that one hit (which is also pretty common) will only do 4%. 10% or so means it has to hit twice or three times (if the move is stale or something). You can combo from it, sure, but since Peach's fast moves all inflict around 14-17% of damage, your combo will at most do 27% or so of damage... which is crap considering she needs 150% to kill with anything other than a charged Frying Pan.

First of all the move can do what around 24%?. I got it to do something like that, and also it can easily combo into a grab. Think of this: D smash - grab - jab - downthrow - f smash. Thats alot more than 27%...
Oh yeah, Downthrow can combo into a F smash at lower percentages especially on heavier characters. I don't think Niko mentioned that. And before you even say anything, yes it's possible to DI out of.

And this is if they don't DI. If they DI the Dsmash, they'll still get out of it... and be able to hit you since there's less hitstun now. DI:ed Dsmash = You eat an aerial (possibly).

Meanwhile, Marth can still Tipper you to death at ridiculously low %s, Lucas' Upsmash kills you at, like, 90%, Fox's Upsmash at 120% (and you can combo into it from Dair -> U-tilt) and Olimar's smashes at 110%.

She's not just bad because she's weak. She's bad because there are so many characters much better than her.

You seem to take DI into account when it's against Peach's moves, but all those moves you listed can be DIed at those percentages. Bias much? Also, killing percentages don't make a character, yet hers are not bad anyway.



Fair cannot and will never kill anyone at 95%. I mean, in Melee, it could kill Jigglypuff if you were near the edge of Final Destination if the Jigglypuff didn't DI.

But that's not how we measure a move's strength ("Against crappy players who do not DI and while being close to the edge"). It indeed kills around 140-150% (with DI).

What is it with you and Jigglypuff? I'm used to fighting good Jiggs, and a good Jiggs is very hard to kill when they properly DI in Melee. 150% actually is not a bad percentage to kill with for good DI now. I think the f air is much more than decent in Brawl.


Dair is a multi-hit. As RyokoYaksha or some other player already established, all multi-hit attacks can be tap-DI:ed out of it. They can tap-DI out of it (pretty easily) and aerial you in the face especially since the last hit is kinda laggy. It will also never guarantee you an Upair at "medium percentages" (50%?) since they fly too far, her 2nd jump is too sucky, her Uair can't reach that far and, hey, DI (which isn't hard considering the last hit comes out after such a long time from when it started).

They can DI out of it if they're really good, but hey if you're really good too why can't you chase that DI? You're floating, follow them. The D air in my opinion is definitely one of her best moves now. It has so much priority and CAN combo in the right percentages. Sometimes it's actually better not to go for the last hit and move away for a split second so that you can combo.

Well I'm done for now, maybe I'll finish with this later I'm not sure. I'm very confused because you were a Peach player no, Yuna? It really seems like you WANT her to suck now. Oh yeah and you seem to think any Peach move that can be DI'ed out of its completely useless. People aren't going to DI perfectly every single time. In Melee, Captain Falcon could never d throw to knee a Marth with perfect DI. Does this mean the combo is useless on him? Heeellllllll no.

[GA Peach]

well, it IS yuna. this person knows everything about everything. hey, yuna, can you end world hunger? btw, the golf club fsmash is beast. i've sent people careening to their deaths at around late 90s to early 100s with it. and yes, they are people who can DI and other simple stuff, Mikey G being one of them.

[Hawks go Caw]

You keep talking about the frying pan, but the frying pan is the one that does the most damage. The tennis racket is the one with the most knockback. So with that said, shouldn't a tennis racket be able to send someone off the stage before a frying pan?

---

Edit:

On a side note, I know Snake, Wario, and Falco can do their dash attack and cancel into an up smash right after they hit an opponent/object. Can peach do it to?

[Firekid2]

This thread was a horrible idea that could've waited 'til the "Peach Sucks" arguement died down.

Good tips, though. ;)

[RickRIGHTEOUS]

Well Firekid2, let us drop the Peach sucks concept all-together then. If nobody moves on now, they never will.

[Yuna]

This depends where you are on the stage and who you're hitting with it, but it can work at that percentage. Also, if it's a small stage, then what would the frying pan matter? All that has to do with is the height of the ceiling.
Because the ceilings in Brawl are generally lower than in Melee, including on returning stages. However, yes, the Frying Pan isn't the strongest, necessarily, but let's not get into the "where on the stage they're standing"-argument here.

The point is neither of the Fsmashes, unless fully charged, will kill anyone if they ahve 110% before the Fsmash hits them unless you're playing on a tiny stage.

First of all the move can do what around 24%?. I got it to do something like that, and also it can easily combo into a grab. Think of this: D smash - grab - jab - downthrow - f smash. Thats alot more than 27%..
You're apparently not grasping the concept of "Reduced Hitstun".

For one thing, if the Dsmash hits for all hits, they will fly off too far to combo well, never mind with a grab! Even if it only hits once, twice or thrice, the hitstun will be insufficient for a grab. Also, no throw can combo into a jab. her throws suck now. Have you played the game?

Downthrow does not guarantee or even combo into an Fsmash with DI and attacking out of getting Dthrown. Does not work... ever.

Oh yeah, Downthrow can combo into a F smash at lower percentages especially on heavier characters. I don't think Niko mentioned that. And before you even say anything, yes it's possible to DI out of.
Then why even mention it? Peach's Dthrow is one of the easiest throws in the game to DI out of because it is so slow on startup. It's like saying "Jigglypuff can Dthrow into Rest... without DI, teching or anything!".

It's not a combo if it only works on terminally idiotic players.

You seem to take DI into account when it's against Peach's moves, but all those moves you listed can be DIed at those percentages. Bias much? Also, killing percentages don't make a character, yet hers are not bad anyway.
I take DI into account when talking about any character. Certain moves are hard to DI out of because they're so fast, like Fox's Upthrow (you have to foresee it). Peach's throws? Not so much.

Killing percentages do, indeed, determine how good a character is. How good would Fox be if he couldn't KO anyone 'til 250% in Melee? And the crucial part with Brawl Peach is that she's lost what little comboability she had in Melee and her deadly Dsmash.

She now lacks potential both in terms of comboing, damaging and KO:ing, something that's very bad.

What is it with you and Jigglypuff? I'm used to fighting good Jiggs, and a good Jiggs is very hard to kill when they properly DI in Melee. 150% actually is not a bad percentage to kill with for good DI now. I think the f air is much more than decent in Brawl.
Yeah, only there are plenty of characters who can KO way before that. They will be the Tops and Highs. Peach will be Mid.

Jigglypuff is not hard to kill in Melee. In fact, she's among the easiest to KO in Melee, DI or no DI. What game have you been playing and what are you comparing those DI:ing Jiggz to? Non-DI:ing Space Animals?

When I say "KO" (and when others say "KO"), I mean "Will kill upon impact and knockback", not "Will throw them off-stage for edgeguarding" (which is pretty much non-existent in Brawl anyway.

They can DI out of it if they're really good, but hey if you're really good too why can't you chase that DI? You're floating, follow them. The D air in my opinion is definitely one of her best moves now. It has so much priority and CAN combo in the right percentages. Sometimes it's actually better not to go for the last hit and move away for a split second so that you can combo.
Because they'll just DI down. It does not matter how much priority a move has. The priority only comes into effect if you're afraid they'll hit you through it. The priority does not in any way matter when it comes to how well a move combos.

The move only combos at extremely low percentages (0-20%-ish, at most).

Well I'm done for now, maybe I'll finish with this later I'm not sure. I'm very confused because you were a Peach player no, Yuna? It really seems like you WANT her to suck now. Oh yeah and you seem to think any Peach move that can be DI'ed out of its completely useless. People aren't going to DI perfectly every single time. In Melee, Captain Falcon could never d throw to knee a Marth with perfect DI. Does this mean the combo is useless on him? Heeellllllll no.
I do not want her to suck. I'm just objective enough to state facts instead of exaggerating and making up lies.

Yuna, I do test all the things I post, you must think really low of me in order to rip apart my entire post. What makes you think I wouldn't test these things, I've had the game for nearly a month now. I'm positive what I've posted works. Also when I say X move kills at X percent....it means when the character is at X percent...when you hit them with X move, they will die.

I play against players who are very technical in melee and are progressing very nicely in brawl, of course they 2nd jump, air dodge etc.

Please, just give up on trying to know it all about brawl.
If you tested those things, then why did you exaggerate, embellish and downright lie so much about Peach's assets in Brawl?

Some of the things you said are only possible if you're playing someone really stupid or someone who hasn't played any Smash game much (like certain combos). Certain things were downright lies, like the percentages at which you KO with the Fsmash.

I do not know everything. But at least I state what I know subjectively and often devoid of embellishment and exaggeration.

[.:~*Momo*~:.]

Thank you for making this thread NikoK! ^.^ I seriously hate seeing people say she sucks and saying that she's unplayable when I've seen videos that prove otherwise. =/ I'm glad she's got a few things going for her still. ^_^

[Firekid2]

Well Firekid2, let us drop the Peach sucks concept all-together then. If nobody moves on now, they never will.

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that this might as well just be flamebait...

I'm really tired of Yuna complaining...

[RickRIGHTEOUS]

Agreed. Yuna does seem to be shoving Peach's negatives down all our throats. We got the message the first time around.

[Firekid2]

Agreed. Yuna does seem to be shoving Peach's negatives down all our throats. We got the message the first time around.

Well, okay, It's all fine and dandy that Yuna is tell us what is bad about Peach. That's fine. What I don't understand is why she doesn't want to share anything to get AROUND those weaknesses. At this point though, I don't feel that either side of this stupid dabate will back down.

I'm sure everybody just feels like broken records right now... :ohwell:


EDIT: This song decribes perfectly how I feel about Brawl Peach.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bmA5bGv6FSQ&feature=related

I believe in you, Peach!:)

[rm88]

Well, okay, It's all fine and dandy that Yuna is tell us what is bad about Peach.
In every single post? ~_~

[Firekid2]

In every single post? ~_~

Sometimes, the glaringly obvious must be stated. >_>

And some peoples head are a little thick, (mine included) so...

[Mizukami_Jago]

So basically... all we have to do, is work with what we've got... I think though, despite her nerfs... We can find a way to deal with our opponents (at least, I will try anyway.)

[Wolfblade]

Couple questions for Yuna...

How much Peach Brawl experience do you actually have?

Care to shed some light on anything good about her... especially since you have a bloody Peach avatar!

I don't play Peach, but I've fought a good one... in fact, I fight Niko's. The **** he's saying has in fact bin tested. The KO moves are not gonna work with every character, like heavy ones... at the percentages listed, but still; You rip apart the posts and I really wanna know where yer comming from.

If you do have Peach experience from Brawl, you probably spam your moves, weaken the **** outa them and that's why you think all the moves are so weak, cause yer playing Brawl like Melee.

So what experience do you have and tell me what you think is good about Peach at all.

Please enlighten me.

[Dark.Pch]

Couple questions for Yuna...

How much Peach Brawl experience do you actually have?

Care to shed some light on anything good about her... especially since you have a bloody Peach avatar!

I don't play Peach, but I've fought a good one... in fact, I fight Niko's. The **** he's saying has in fact bin tested. The KO moves are not gonna work with every character, like heavy ones... at the percentages listed, but still; You rip apart the posts and I really wanna know where yer comming from.

If you do have Peach experience from Brawl, you probably spam your moves, weaken the **** outa them and that's why you think all the moves are so weak, cause yer playing Brawl like Melee.

So what experience do you have and tell me what you think is good about Peach at all.

Please enlighten me.


Damm, I should have just did this kind of post to just end it. You sir, speak wisdom.

[Hawks go Caw]

How much Peach Brawl experience do you actually have?


Yuna has "played extensively." Okay. How dare you question his/her experience! Yuna's been playing a full 5 weeks now!!! He/she knows every detail about Peach's metagame.

[hoopspr226]

I do not know everything. But at least I state what I know subjectively and often devoid of embellishment and exaggeration.

LOL

Yes, You do state what you know SUBJECTIVELY

[Liquid-Gold]

Couple questions for Yuna...

How much Peach Brawl experience do you actually have?

Care to shed some light on anything good about her... especially since you have a bloody Peach avatar!

I don't play Peach, but I've fought a good one... in fact, I fight Niko's. The **** he's saying has in fact bin tested. The KO moves are not gonna work with every character, like heavy ones... at the percentages listed, but still; You rip apart the posts and I really wanna know where yer comming from.

If you do have Peach experience from Brawl, you probably spam your moves, weaken the **** outa them and that's why you think all the moves are so weak, cause yer playing Brawl like Melee.

So what experience do you have and tell me what you think is good about Peach at all.

Please enlighten me.

Thank you, good sir.

We get it Yuna. You don't like Peach. However, feel free to stop cramming your opinion down our throats. If you don't want to play as Peach, that's fine, but please stop telling us that we have no business playing as her.

I mean, come on. This is the Peach board, is it not? The people here obviously want to play as Peach, and if you don't like her, go to another character's board. Besides, just because you refuse to actually try to learn ways around her weaknesses, it doesn't mean we can't.

[RickRIGHTEOUS]

Yuna has "played extensively." Okay. How dare you question his/her experience! Yuna's been playing a full 5 weeks now!!! He/she knows every detail about Peach's metagame.

Everything about a metagame in just five weeks? You could learn a lot... but everything is pushing it...

[DeLoRtEd1]

Yuna is posting in this thread? I have he / she / it on ignore after that moronic "lack of female characters" thread.

Seriously guys, I dunno what Yuna's talking about if those quotes are correct. I suggest you have her on ignore; all you'll read from Yuna is disappointment.

[Yuna]

Couple questions for Yuna...

How much Peach Brawl experience do you actually have?
Lots? How do I quantify it? By hours played?

Care to shed some light on anything good about her... especially since you have a bloody Peach avatar!
Faster dash speed, better toad, better Peach bomber, improved Fsmash, faster tilts.

I've already stated all of these things, however. She's not useless. She's just not as good as some people make her out to be.

I don't play Peach, but I've fought a good one... in fact, I fight Niko's. The **** he's saying has in fact bin tested. The KO moves are not gonna work with every character, like heavy ones... at the percentages listed, but still; You rip apart the posts and I really wanna know where yer comming from.
Did any of these "opponents" DI? Were any of the moves charged? Was it on stages that weren't tiny? I posed all of these questions when questioning his percentage-counting.

If you do have Peach experience from Brawl, you probably spam your moves, weaken the **** outa them and that's why you think all the moves are so weak, cause yer playing Brawl like Melee.
No I do not and you don't really have to spam them anymore to weaken them. They weaken pretty fast. I still do not spam my KO moves. Also, when I test out KO-percentages, I do it in Training Mode and constantly KO myself and the opponent to prevent Stale Moves.

So what experience do you have and tell me what you think is good about Peach at all.
Read above. And why must there be a lot of positive things about every single character? Some characters are just bad or mediocre. Why can't people just accept that maybe, Peach is pretty mediocre this time around?

you are simple, aren't you? anyway, I personally was not there from the beginning, but a good friend of mine was; Mike G. he explained everything to me, saying that for the longest time, people said exactly this, "Peach is frankly too slow to be competitive. Her attacks are not very good, and the only real attack she has going for her is down smash." then, he comes along and makes a whole new style for her, changing the metagame you speak so much of completely.
A lot of BS went on years and years ago.

You know what people thought about Marth before Ken entered the scene? Not much. And then he did. People also were crap at DI:ing once, thought the shine was useless and whatever.

This was years and years ago, when the Competitive Smash scene wasn't as large as now and people were relative "n00bs" compared to today. It's like comparing the Street Fighter Community from the times of SF2 to the dawn of SFIII: 3rd Strike.

Communities change, grow. They learn new things. The young Smash Community was pretty n00b because SSB64 wasn't really "Serious Business". The Community back then had yet to learn the true meanings of character balance, tierlists, metagame and "What makes a good character".

Also, I have stated time and again that IMO, from what we know now, Peach is a mediocre character. Never once have I excluded the possibility of her becoming a better character if we find out a bunch of new things that she can do. In fact, I've pointed out that while it's unlikely, we could very well find out a bunch of new things that really improved her metagame.

my point is, basically no one is arguing with you based on being a fan, but more on common sense. as i had to explain to Cort, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are fanatical about whatever they disagree with you on. developing a metagame in a brand new game takes just what it took in Melee's SEVEN YEARS of life...time. as everything has not been found out about Brawl yet, maybe Peach will suck. Maybe she won't. The bottom line is that it is unknown until everything has been found out, as with Melee.
I never claimed anyone who disagreed with me was fanatical. But some people who have replied to me have written fanatical responses along the lines of "Peach will be good! She has to be!", others have even said crap like "How dare you switch characters just because Peach might not be very good anymore?!" (yes, they have)(kinda indicating that they're fanatical Peach fans who would never ever "stray", even if she became the Brawl-equivalent of Pichu... and who hate anyone who would).

This is a fighting game. Competitive players will pick and choose characters based on how good they are and/or their style (but in the end, if my favourite character is Bottom Tier, I will most likely get a new Main who could kick ***... because I'm a Competitive Player. I do not enter tournaments (for money) to lose because my character's got a constant uphill battle).

I would never blame someone for sticking with Peach despite her possibly being quite crappy (I said "possibly"). However, I take offense to people blaming me for switching and consider those people fanatics.

So again, to make SURE you get this, and to answer you question, YES, everyone thought Peach sucked at the beginning, and the real question you need ask yourself is, were YOU here during it all? because, based on your lack of knowledge now, it doesn't seem likely. if you think this is false, you can talk to Mikey about it. EvilPeach18, so you now know.
I know who Mike is. I have his MSN.

(+ a few other posts which I won't bother quoting)

Wow wait, so you're saying you don't have any Nintendo fan obsessions? =P

*not expecting that to be true*
I'm a fan, I have my likes and dislikes. I use Peach in pretty much all Nintendo games.

But I'm not so fanatical/obsessed as to play Peach even if she didn't stand a chance in a competitive setting... for competitive play. I'll still play Peach in friendlies and for fun. But if I'm ever going to play Brawl competitively, I will most likely get a new main.

The reasonable player should be pleased this once nearly broken character is toned down. This favors people who want to play with the characters they actually like when fewer characters stand out as broken. A large part of what's great in gameplay IMO is finding ways to work around your limitations. People who are awesome with "bad" characters are generally more impressive anyway.
It's not just "toned down". It's downright "mega-nerfing".

And I don't give a rat's *** about "what's more impressive", especially not in terms of "People who play Low Tiers are worthy of more praise!". I play Competitively to win. I wouldn't pick a character who auto-won because that would just be boring. But I also pick my characters based on their chances of winning.

Constant uphill battle against the most prominent characters at tournaments? No thanks.

[Wolfblade]

Yuna again:

For the record, I do think Peach is fairly average. I wasn't implying I think she is awesome but you were being miles to harsh on her.

I hate using Peach, it makes me sad, but she has a lot of talent. In Brawl, on a big stage, almost nothing can KO at the percentages given unless the move is like Ike's fsmash and the like.

You were right about fsmash improvement... golf club is godly, and the bomber is actually good this time instead of garbage. She has a lot of improvements, frankly, she is better this time around, imho.

I mentioned before that those KO percentages are not for every character, but I have the personal experience of being hit by most of them during a match with proper DI. My lightweights are KO'd pretty close to what he says (also depends on where you are in the stage, big or small) and even the middle weights were close to Niko's percentages, provided he actually saved the KO moves.

Niko DOES know what he's talking about, even if he is a lil high on Peach fermones.

You say that people shouldn't praise her as much as they do, and you may be right, but you need to cut her some slack yerself.

[Yuna]

I mentioned before that those KO percentages are not for every character, but I have the personal experience of being hit by most of them during a match with proper DI. My lightweights are KO'd pretty close to what he says (also depends on where you are in the stage, big or small) and even the middle weights were close to Niko's percentages, provided he actually saved the KO moves.

Niko DOES know what he's talking about, even if he is a lil high on Peach fermones.

You say that people shouldn't praise her as much as they do, and you may be right, but you need to cut her some slack yerself.
You cannot base average KO-percentages on "Lightweights close to the edge on small stages". That's like saying "Marth's tippered Fsmash kills at 60% (Jigglypuff near the edge on Yoshi's Story)", which was what I was trying to say.

I only come down with the "Peach hate" when people exaggerate. I've never randomly stumbled into a thread and counted up her nerfs unless asked for it by others ("What are her changes/nerfs?") or I find someone I think is exaggerating greatly.

When stating things like "Peach's Fsmash kills at...", you should be doing it on average-weighted characters on average-sized stages and keep in mind to not always test it right next to the edge, especially not if it's a semi-spike.

[Yuna]

Oh, BTW, I don't really remember which thread it was stated in, but Ryoko claimed that Peach's dsmash is quite hard to punish on block.

I present to you:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iqK_NzKIT2A

(00:10)

One blocked dsmash, one shieldhopped bair (which is actually slower than Marth's Fair and Nair, IIRC). Characters with good aerials will easily be able to punish her Dsmash, especially as the hitbox is much closer to the ground now).

[RyokoYaksa]

Marth punishing Peach's Dsmash on shield after taking one hit from it? That's new and exciting.

[RedMage8BT]

Yuna, since you seem to be a pretty harsh Peach critic, would you say her Uair is better, worse, or about the same?