Is Marth now broken (or more so?)

[rtmcs1017]

I've never considered Marth to be an extremely broken character, although I would argue that Marth is easy to be mediocre with and difficult to master. I want a nonbiased answer and hopefully one with some proof.

Is he broken to all hell in brawl? If so, if not, reasons please.

(I plan on primarily not using final smashes, by the way.)

Thanks.

[Mew2King]

at first i thought he was either more broken (comparatively) or the same, but now i think he's far less broken since you can't legitimately combo fairs together without it being escapable with an air dodge, and he gets camped easily. He's probably still top tier, very very worst high, but I don't feel he's nearly as broken as my earliest first impressions were of him, I just carry over a lot of melee ability into brawl that's why I thought that.

[rtmcs1017]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you. I have tons of experience with Melee and I never noticed a trend of losing or winning more often against Marth in the previous game. Sure, he was an amazing character, but he just never seemed to be blatantly broken to me, even in the hands of tournament players. I'm glad to see that he's possibly more balanced in this game because I was hoping like hell that SSBB was going to be as balanced as possible.

Thanks for the info.

[Emblem Lord]

If you go by Melee standards he is less broken.

By Brawl standards he is pretty ****ing broken if you ask me.

I don't think anyone is better then him in this game tbh.

[Meljin]

I think like M2K...He is now as broken as guys thinks, and IMO only for a reason...
Pit, dedede, link, toon link, falco (...) can spam too easily 20% or alike, and marth don't have defenses for it (don't say the counter, for one pit arrow countered, you take 2 arrows...). And powershield dont reflect like a shine so... It's harder to approach spammers...

[Mazaloth]

Really, the only thing that bothered me is the Dancing blades not being able to recover fromthem, and less range.

But the range isn't like peach grab...so it's honestly not that bad.
The dancing bladething is a real set back, but You can't get everything....

[Hydde]

He is less deadly than inmelee. Like m2king said... the ability to pull off combos with insane damage and Koing potencial is almost gone.

And he still have that issue against proyectiles.

[Psydon]

Marth's major nerfs in Brawl are as follows:

-Decreased float factor (he falls faster)
-Loss of using the Dancing Blade for recovery (this is partially mitigated by Brawl's easier recovery, and his new neutral B, which can be used for recovery, albiet in a very predictable and easily countered fashion)
-Decreased range (Falchion is about 1/2 - 2/3 its Melee length. It's still long, but to give an example: Marth's F-smash is only about as long as his forearm now)
-Increased fair knockback (he can't really combo with it anymore)
-Slightly decreased tipper knockback for most moves
-Fixed/decreased grab range (now he actually grabs within the reach of his arms, which isn't that far)
-Loss of wavedashing and dashdancing in Brawl (this affects everyone; it limits Marth's options, lowers his killing and defensive potential and makes him much more predictable)
-Decreased hitstun from throws and improved DI distance in Brawl (this affects everyone; it effectively breaks his chainthrowing ability and his killer throw combos, to an extent. Edit: It also makes it tougher for him to combo in general)

[Gindler]

well you all have to admit, he was kind of over powered and needed some nerfing, do you think they nerfed fox and falco as well?

[Mew2King]

um Psydon your post is inaccurate, the range is at least 2/3rds of what it was before, possibly 75% or so (as a better guesstimate) except for nerfed F smash horizontal range of course.

Forward B barely stalls you, so it's not really useful anymore for that.

Tippers are STRONGER now, just a lot harder to consistently hit with, and attack power deterioration rapes him.

His dash grab is HORRIBLE, the only reason he needs to use it is because people block so often vs marth, that it's necessary to get small damage, good for mix ups, and return the attack power of his other moves. But compared to other grabs, his grabs AND throws are all bottom tier status now.

[AcidJazz]

You're really putting him bottom high tier? I felt like he got moved up relatively just by watching the characters, but I guess I haven't played top players.

Albeit that fsmash is shorter, man it kills at (relatively) a lot lower percentages than it use to.

Man, his throwing does suck! I've tried every combination of everything and I can't even get position. All throws throw too far for any good. Grabbing is still really important, but I just find myself beating them to death plus they're closer to me when I release them that way. I'm not sure at all what to do with his grabs. I'm voting just punch the crap out of the opponent for the extra %.

Psydon... You said his fair going horizontal is a nerf? No way dood. That fair provides some serious off the ledge fighting and keeping people from even coming close to the ledge. As always, sucks fighting floaty characters.

I don't think he got nerfed. I think he's relatively stronger compared to the other characters in the game, but I'm not really one to argue against top players :)

I still think fox has some merit in this one. I haven't seen anything from Falco yet. He looks painfully slow and I have no idea what's going on with that shield. Fox is amazing off the ledge yet his recovery is kind of predictable. MK is kind of weak but seems to be really good at pushing people off the map. I find Wolf too slow and the moves that are fast lack priority.

Marth is more mid ranged character now. It works though... and his attacks are fast!

[Meljin]

Bottom tier ? Lol
He is high tier easily btw...

[verditude]

I think he meant bottom of high tier, not bottom tier.

[Psydon]

um Psydon your post is inaccurate, the range is at least 2/3rds of what it was before, possibly 75% or so (as a better guesstimate) except for nerfed F smash horizontal range of course.

At least most of what I said was correct. ^_^ Maybe I was wrong about Falchion; the point is that it's shorter, and the Fsmash is even shorter somehow. Better for the rest of us, bad for Marth.



Albeit that fsmash is shorter, man it kills at (relatively) a lot lower percentages than it use to.

Psydon... You said his fair going horizontal is a nerf? No way dood. That fair provides some serious off the ledge fighting and keeping people from even coming close to the ledge. As always, sucks fighting floaty characters.

I don't think he got nerfed. I think he's relatively stronger compared to the other characters in the game, but I'm not really one to argue against top players :)



1. I dunno. The Fsmash's power seemed the same to me.

2. Yes, the fair having better knockback is a bad thing. Marth's fair in Melee wasn't a launcher, it was a combo move. But in Brawl, that isn't the case anymore.

No more bull**** fair combos. No more Ken combos. Just a little more horizontal distance that your opponent can easily recover from.

3. IMO Marth was nerfed. He's still good, but he's certainly nerfed from his Melee form. I'm very happy that they nerfed fixed his Fsmash, fair and throws; those things were broken in Melee.

[Emblem Lord]

I can't belive no one has noticed why his f-smash range is drecreased.

It's because he no longer fully extends his body when doing the attack. Noe he hold his arm closer to his body intead of fully extending it.

Marth only seems nerfed alot when you look at Brawl Marth from a Melee engine point of view.

The fact that his aeriels are better for killing is good, since comboability is so limted in the first place. This means Marth has more ways to get kills in a game where alot of characters have trouble killing.

His throws are the only thing about him that have been truly toned down IMO. He can't do anything off of them. Throwing it just a way to bypass shields for Marth.

Brawl Marth is still broken. Just in different ways.

M2K said Marth's grabs are bottom tier. Not Marth himself.

I agree somewhat. Marth's grab game is very mediocre. He can't really do much unless his opponent flubbs thier DI. It's just to put them in the air so Marth has an advantage in positioning.

[The Great Gonzales]

its called ****ing up-b out of shield, no l-cancel means
Hey marth would you mind if i attack you?
No **** you, Up-B out shield bicht

[Hydde]

Yeh, about the sword lengh, yes i noticed.

He no longer uses the longest distance in his sword, he instead move his arm slightly when doing the slashes, causing the max distance of the sword not covering the entire trayectory.

In melee he almost always extended the arm to the max and wielded the sword perfectly extended, gaining full distance with the slices.

[Psydon]

I can't belive no one has noticed why his f-smash range is drecreased.

It's because he no longer fully extends his body when doing the attack. Noe he hold his arm closer to his body intead of fully extending it.

Marth only seems nerfed alot when you look at Brawl Marth from a Melee engine point of view.

The fact that his aeriels are better for killing is good, since comboability is so limted in the first place. This means Marth has more ways to get kills in a game where alot of characters have trouble killing.

His throws are the only thing about him that have been truly toned down IMO. He can't do anything off of them. Throwing it just a way to bypass shields for Marth.

Brawl Marth is still broken. Just in different ways.

M2K said Marth's grabs are bottom tier. Not Marth himself.

I agree somewhat. Marth's grab game is very mediocre. He can't really do much unless his opponent flubbs thier DI. It's just to put them in the air so Marth has an advantage in positioning.

1. I think people pay attention to the blue waves that show the edges of the hitbox, not the animation. XP Just a thought.

2. Well, what else are we going to compare Marth to?

Brawl Marth = Good.

Brawl Marth vs. Brawl cast = Good.

Brawl Marth vs. Melee Marth = Nerfed.

That's all.

3. It's true that Brawl's physics make it tougher to combo, and having better knockback for his other aerials is great since he can't combo with them anyway, but specifically his fair's increased knockback isn't anything to be happy about. Its knockback is just enough to make it nigh-impossible to combo with, Brawl physics or not, but not enough to really make people think: "****! Look at that fair!" Now it's almost exactly like all of his other aerials, really.

4. Marth's obscene grab range and throws were a big part of what made him so broken. Without those, wavedashing and dash dancing, his approach options are very limited and it'll be a lot tougher for players to get in some good damage.

Let's face it, of all his strengths, the only one that's been buffed is his knockback, but there's more to getting kills than just blasting people off the map. Compared to other characters he may have an easier time killing, but that's like comparing two uni students taking an exam. Both have a hard task ahead, but for whatever reason one may find it just a bit easier than the other.

5. Certainly Marth isn't bottom tier. "The Lord of Brawl"? "The best character"? I doubt it. I think he'll be somewhere in the high tier, or the top of the mid tier at worst.

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

You are funny.

Marth in high tier?

HAHAHAHA. If he is he will be at the top of high tier.

Other that that I agree with most of what you said.

He was nerfed. But only slightly so he is still awesome.

[Psydon]

lol.

You are funny.

Marth in high tier?

HAHAHAHA. If he is he will be at the top of high tier.

Other that that I agree with most of what you said.

He was nerfed. But only slightly so he is still awesome.

Marth is still awesome, but let's get real here. Essentially everything people/Ken did with Marth doesn't work anymore, and that stuff was what made Marth so good in the first place. Watch the Marth videos, all he can really do now is toss attacks all over the place and pray that the opponent dies. Marth has no setups and no combos; he's just pure knockback (and even in that aspect, as with every other aspect of Marth's gameplay, the very engine of Brawl works against him). Even his new B moves aren't that hot. Brawl Marth can easily be outreached, overpowered and/or outmanuevered-in other words, outplayed-by a number of characters. As time goes on and the intricacies of the cast become more apparent, people are going to key into this more.

Right now people are cheering because Marth can KO at maybe 2% less on average than in Melee, and Ken Combo computers. That's not gonna last.

Keep your optimism, it's a good thing. I have my doubts and I'm sticking by them.

Edit: In case the TC never had his question answered, no Marth isn't broken anymore. Rejoice. ^_^

[FrostByte]

Brawl anything vs. Melee anything = Nerfed.


I think that's something you forgot to add.

[AcidJazz]

It's not a matter of being nerfed vs melee. Who cares if he's different from melee characters? Are you playing Melee in Brawl? Jeez this is a new game, Melee has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all relative. My argument for him not being nerfed is because in relation to other characters in the game, I find that he has an easier edge on them than Melee Marth vs all other Melee characters. If everyone's "nerfed", then nerfing marth less than everyone else is not nerfing marth, it's making him stronger. It's not a comparison between Melee character vs Brawl character, it's a comparison of Brawl character vs Brawl Character.

You want to talk about nerfed?

Peach. I can't do a ****ing move without grabbing a turnip. Seriously, I fair, i grab turnip. I air dodge, i grab turnip. I swear I have a turnip in my hands more than she does.

Ganon... Grab a ledge. Fall quickly and jump, that slow piece of **** can't even make it up the ledge. His "run" is slower than marth's walk.

Those are the two that are sticking out right now.

[Psydon]

It's not a matter of being nerfed vs melee. Who cares if he's different from melee characters? Are you playing Melee in Brawl? Jeez this is a new game, Melee has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all relative. My argument for him not being nerfed is because in relation to other characters in the game, I find that he has an easier edge on them than Melee Marth vs all other Melee characters. If everyone's "nerfed", then nerfing marth less than everyone else is not nerfing marth, it's making him stronger. It's not a comparison between Melee character vs Brawl character, it's a comparison of Brawl character vs Brawl Character.

You want to talk about nerfed?

Peach. I can't do a ****ing move without grabbing a turnip. Seriously, I fair, i grab turnip. I air dodge, i grab turnip. I swear I have a turnip in my hands more than she does.

Ganon... Grab a ledge. Fall quickly and jump, that slow piece of **** can't even make it up the ledge. His "run" is slower than marth's walk.

Those are the two that are sticking out right now.

Well, for starters, saying that everyone is nerfed is a complete lie.

Second, it's not so much as just saying: "Marth is nerfed!", it's the specifics of it. And that's what I've been mentioning, because that's the point of the topic.

The TC asked: Is Marth broken in Brawl?

I answered: No. Actually, Marth is, while still good, worse in Brawl, and this is why. Even though Brawl is a new game and everyone has changed, Marth's changes render a lot of the strategies everyone has been weaned on for him obsolete and in some cases impossible. Hence, once more, even though Marth is still good, he's nerfed.

That's all.

[k4polo]

1. I think people pay attention to the blue waves that show the edges of the hitbox, not the animation. XP Just a thought.

2. Well, what else are we going to compare Marth to?

Brawl Marth = Good.

Brawl Marth vs. Brawl cast = Good.

Brawl Marth vs. Melee Marth = Nerfed.

That's all.

3. It's true that Brawl's physics make it tougher to combo, and having better knockback for his other aerials is great since he can't combo with them anyway, but specifically his fair's increased knockback isn't anything to be happy about. Its knockback is just enough to make it nigh-impossible to combo with, Brawl physics or not, but not enough to really make people think: "****! Look at that fair!" Now it's almost exactly like all of his other aerials, really.

4. Marth's obscene grab range and throws were a big part of what made him so broken. Without those, wavedashing and dash dancing, his approach options are very limited and it'll be a lot tougher for players to get in some good damage.

Let's face it, of all his strengths, the only one that's been buffed is his knockback, but there's more to getting kills than just blasting people off the map. Compared to other characters he may have an easier time killing, but that's like comparing two uni students taking an exam. Both have a hard task ahead, but for whatever reason one may find it just a bit easier than the other.

5. Certainly Marth isn't bottom tier. "The Lord of Brawl"? "The best character"? I doubt it. I think he'll be somewhere in the high tier, or the top of the mid tier at worst.

I agree to this. People assume he high/top tier because of Melee. Just for that assumption,people highlight all the strength of Marth and ignore the weaknesses. I guess that to be expected though. The reason I agree to this is that if you compare and expert Marth melee vid to an expert brawl Melee vid. You notice the nerfing.

Also alot of combos got nerfed but everyone been nerf differently. I agree to his point of marth unability to combo. He may be high tier but one things for sure, he will NOT dominate like Melee.

[Iwan]

He's more balanced in brawl imo. At first i thought he was completely broken...just because i carried my initial impressions from melee over to brawl. After playing for a while though (over a month now), his fairs are more easily escaped from now, and he can't string together seemingly endless combos anymore either. He's still a beast, and a great characer (high tier at the very worst), but he isn't broken, nor is he cheap.

[UnSaxon51]

It's good to see that he's not as broken as I've been reading on some other boards. From his videos I certain notice some major differences from his play style in Melee. Maybe against certain characters he's still nigh-unstoppable, but overall it seems like he's rather balanced.

[hario.hige]

If everyone will just ignore Melee for the sake of determining Marth's brokenness, you shall see that against most, if not all, of rest of Brawl's cast, Marth is broken.

Marth being nerfed *from Melee* has no bearing on his matchups in Brawl whatsoever.

[Warlock*G]

If everyone will just ignore Melee for the sake of determining Marth's brokenness, you shall see that against most, if not all, of rest of Brawl's cast, Marth is broken.

Marth being nerfed *from Melee* has no bearing on his matchups in Brawl whatsoever.

May I...?

Marth is certainly good. And that counter seems awesome. However, let's not jump to conclusions just yet.

Of course, I too think that the devs were smoking weed when they decided to put Marth as is and to nerf Ganon and Falcon so bad, but please, let's not be prophets.

(Who am I kidding, balance was never Saky's priority anyway)

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I sincerely hope Marth is worse in Brawl than he is in Melee, to the point where he isn't a nightmare to play against, because I am maining Marth solely because I am a Marth fan outside of Smash Bros.

[Crizthakidd]

lol a lot less broken then before. but if you wanted a un biased answer not all of them will be at the marth board!

[Dark Sonic]

its called ****ing up-b out of shield, no l-cancel means
Hey marth would you mind if i attack you?
No **** you, Up-B out shield bicht

QFT.
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