Wararchon
02-25-2008, 11:01 PM
I've been playing brawl with zss to get a good enough idea for some of the matchups.
Ike- Ike's attacks can be spaced easily enough and are punishable. Side B can be spammed and the samus suit pieces can destroy. His recovery is alright, but a forward or backwards ariel while he's off the stage will pretty much guarantee no recovery. If he gets you off the stage , use the whip to recover, as he can easily punish if zamus approaches from above the edge.
*edit try not to use down b for recovery as most ike's i've played use side a for edgeguard and approaching from above the edge can result in a quick death.
Lucas- His PK fire is a pain, cuz when it's spammed its hard to approach or use side b. All missed grabs will be punished by his side b, but vice versa since he also has a similar grab. Unlike ness, his recovery is hard to gimp since pkthunder passes through enemies instead of stopping. If he uses pk thunder as his third jump, don't attack until after his flying animation. He has very high air priority, so approach with caution in the air.
Link- Uh, projectile spam. Need to be really good with dodging and shielding cuz there will be constant boom and arrows with the occasional bomb thrown in. Other than that, punish for his missed grabs. ZSS has a better air game, and i'm pretty sure a well timed up ariel can out prioritize his down Ariel.
*edit: watch out for his smash up a, avoid it and approach from the side.
ROB- To me ROB is a bit overpowered as most of his attacks comes with high priority, damage, and knockback. Mind games and spacing is needed since his normal attacks don't reach as far as the whip. However, don't stay too far away for him to spam laser and projectiles. His ariels take time to develope so attack when not expected. Rob has a good edgeguard game with his his projectiles and ariels, so the best thing to do is to make him miss and tether the recovery. Don't use down b to recover too much or else it'll be punished.
DK- A pretty good matchup for zss in my opinion. His lack of projectiles means that b and side b can be spammed. Again, tether recovery is recommended. Hes big, so he can be juggled with up and side ariels. Watch out for his back ariel since it come out quickly with good priority. With his up b recovery, you can jump out and use a well timed side b to kill.
Falcon- Falcon's back! Only with little combo ability and a weakened knee. Still a threat since since down tilt, down throw, and side b can still set up for his up ariel and the knee. The knee does not do as much damage and is much harder to sweetspot, but it still has KO power above 100%. Falcon's up ariel and back ariel has a lot of knockback and his back ariel is a good edgeguard. His recovery is boosted, and it can reach farther than it looks. Whip spam is hard since he will be in your face all the time. Use down tilt to set up for your ariels. ZSS still can dominate falcon in ariels. Tilts are your friends in this match.
Lucario- After a few matches and watching aiko's vids, Lucario doesn't seem to be too much trouble for zss. Hes still jugglable with up ariels and up b, and his ariels aren't too potent. His recovery can be gimped since it doesn't knock the player off from the edge if it hits. However, watch out for his projectiles. A fully charged one can still hit zss grabing the edge. Don't let a high damage lucario live too long cuz they are a pain. Use down tilt to set up for up and forward ariels and use back ariel as an edgeguard.
DeDeDe- I still don't know whether this matchup is in favor of zss or not. Dedede is big and side b can be connected easily. However, dex3 has a lot of range and his ariels are fast for such a heavy character. He has a down throw which can be chained or followed with a side tilt. His side tilt has huge range, but i'm pretty sure that side b still outranges it. A lot of projectile spam is expected. Edgeguarding him isn't too hard with b and side b, but dex3 has a very good recovery. If he charges a forward smash, just use the side b to keep out of range. Jabs can be used to deflect his projectiles unless its a gordo in which case it's gona suck. Space, space, space. And whip spam.
*Quoted from joetang
"Quote:
Originally Posted by looduhcriss View Post
can u or are u able to give ur thoughts or opinions on facing wolf? i got 2stocked teh other day pretty hard
Space back properly so you're out of Forward Smash Range. Approach with Dash when he wiffs that and chain to Up Tilt and juggle, or Forward B him for a far knock-back.
Save your Down B on the Recovery to go over him if he tries to Meteor you. Drop off and Forward Air if you knock him off, and then Edge Hog (Tether would be a decent choice here) for an easier kill. Of course, he may try to Edge Hog your Tethers, and if you stay high, he'll Laser you down.
Juggling might do better here. Not sure if his Neutral Air out prioritizes your Up Air. His Down Air is pretty slow so you shouldn't have to worry too much about that if you're trying to juggle. Back Air to finish but watch out for his. You ought to be able to juggle on the ground and in the air fairly well.
Lasers are a *****. Shine can screw you over at the beginning if you decide to toss Armour early. On the ground, the Down Smash comes out really fast, but it has poor range. Be careful if he starts to juggle you, Up Tilting -> Up Smashing -> Up Airing. Back Flip away might be the best choice if you can't afford to Air Dodge. You ought to be able to out range his Forward and Back Airs with your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ares And Enyo View Post
thoughts on pika?
Space and avoid Down Smash. Don't try to out prioritize his Forward Air. Punish missed Down Airs with Forward B's, maybe Down Smash if you can space it properly. If he knows what he's doing, he can space a Forward Air in and, if you miss, he can DI away far enough that only your Forward B will reach. Even then, he may still be able to dodge that too since Forward Air has little lag. His Edge Guard should be Neutral Air, Thunder, Thunder Jolt, and possibly Forward Airs. Try dodging with Back Flips or remain high and Air Dodge it completely. He'll rip you apart if you end up Tethering against a Thunder Edge. Pull in as soon as possible if you can see it coming, and get away from the edge. You don't want to be hanging when that drops down. Thunder Jolts you won't really be able to do much against except Shield, Roll, Side-Step or Jump. Don't jump forward to much here or you're begging to be Forward Aired."
*more to be added as i got to go to work. Please add your own opinions on matchups.
Ike- Ike's attacks can be spaced easily enough and are punishable. Side B can be spammed and the samus suit pieces can destroy. His recovery is alright, but a forward or backwards ariel while he's off the stage will pretty much guarantee no recovery. If he gets you off the stage , use the whip to recover, as he can easily punish if zamus approaches from above the edge.
*edit try not to use down b for recovery as most ike's i've played use side a for edgeguard and approaching from above the edge can result in a quick death.
Lucas- His PK fire is a pain, cuz when it's spammed its hard to approach or use side b. All missed grabs will be punished by his side b, but vice versa since he also has a similar grab. Unlike ness, his recovery is hard to gimp since pkthunder passes through enemies instead of stopping. If he uses pk thunder as his third jump, don't attack until after his flying animation. He has very high air priority, so approach with caution in the air.
Link- Uh, projectile spam. Need to be really good with dodging and shielding cuz there will be constant boom and arrows with the occasional bomb thrown in. Other than that, punish for his missed grabs. ZSS has a better air game, and i'm pretty sure a well timed up ariel can out prioritize his down Ariel.
*edit: watch out for his smash up a, avoid it and approach from the side.
ROB- To me ROB is a bit overpowered as most of his attacks comes with high priority, damage, and knockback. Mind games and spacing is needed since his normal attacks don't reach as far as the whip. However, don't stay too far away for him to spam laser and projectiles. His ariels take time to develope so attack when not expected. Rob has a good edgeguard game with his his projectiles and ariels, so the best thing to do is to make him miss and tether the recovery. Don't use down b to recover too much or else it'll be punished.
DK- A pretty good matchup for zss in my opinion. His lack of projectiles means that b and side b can be spammed. Again, tether recovery is recommended. Hes big, so he can be juggled with up and side ariels. Watch out for his back ariel since it come out quickly with good priority. With his up b recovery, you can jump out and use a well timed side b to kill.
Falcon- Falcon's back! Only with little combo ability and a weakened knee. Still a threat since since down tilt, down throw, and side b can still set up for his up ariel and the knee. The knee does not do as much damage and is much harder to sweetspot, but it still has KO power above 100%. Falcon's up ariel and back ariel has a lot of knockback and his back ariel is a good edgeguard. His recovery is boosted, and it can reach farther than it looks. Whip spam is hard since he will be in your face all the time. Use down tilt to set up for your ariels. ZSS still can dominate falcon in ariels. Tilts are your friends in this match.
Lucario- After a few matches and watching aiko's vids, Lucario doesn't seem to be too much trouble for zss. Hes still jugglable with up ariels and up b, and his ariels aren't too potent. His recovery can be gimped since it doesn't knock the player off from the edge if it hits. However, watch out for his projectiles. A fully charged one can still hit zss grabing the edge. Don't let a high damage lucario live too long cuz they are a pain. Use down tilt to set up for up and forward ariels and use back ariel as an edgeguard.
DeDeDe- I still don't know whether this matchup is in favor of zss or not. Dedede is big and side b can be connected easily. However, dex3 has a lot of range and his ariels are fast for such a heavy character. He has a down throw which can be chained or followed with a side tilt. His side tilt has huge range, but i'm pretty sure that side b still outranges it. A lot of projectile spam is expected. Edgeguarding him isn't too hard with b and side b, but dex3 has a very good recovery. If he charges a forward smash, just use the side b to keep out of range. Jabs can be used to deflect his projectiles unless its a gordo in which case it's gona suck. Space, space, space. And whip spam.
*Quoted from joetang
"Quote:
Originally Posted by looduhcriss View Post
can u or are u able to give ur thoughts or opinions on facing wolf? i got 2stocked teh other day pretty hard
Space back properly so you're out of Forward Smash Range. Approach with Dash when he wiffs that and chain to Up Tilt and juggle, or Forward B him for a far knock-back.
Save your Down B on the Recovery to go over him if he tries to Meteor you. Drop off and Forward Air if you knock him off, and then Edge Hog (Tether would be a decent choice here) for an easier kill. Of course, he may try to Edge Hog your Tethers, and if you stay high, he'll Laser you down.
Juggling might do better here. Not sure if his Neutral Air out prioritizes your Up Air. His Down Air is pretty slow so you shouldn't have to worry too much about that if you're trying to juggle. Back Air to finish but watch out for his. You ought to be able to juggle on the ground and in the air fairly well.
Lasers are a *****. Shine can screw you over at the beginning if you decide to toss Armour early. On the ground, the Down Smash comes out really fast, but it has poor range. Be careful if he starts to juggle you, Up Tilting -> Up Smashing -> Up Airing. Back Flip away might be the best choice if you can't afford to Air Dodge. You ought to be able to out range his Forward and Back Airs with your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ares And Enyo View Post
thoughts on pika?
Space and avoid Down Smash. Don't try to out prioritize his Forward Air. Punish missed Down Airs with Forward B's, maybe Down Smash if you can space it properly. If he knows what he's doing, he can space a Forward Air in and, if you miss, he can DI away far enough that only your Forward B will reach. Even then, he may still be able to dodge that too since Forward Air has little lag. His Edge Guard should be Neutral Air, Thunder, Thunder Jolt, and possibly Forward Airs. Try dodging with Back Flips or remain high and Air Dodge it completely. He'll rip you apart if you end up Tethering against a Thunder Edge. Pull in as soon as possible if you can see it coming, and get away from the edge. You don't want to be hanging when that drops down. Thunder Jolts you won't really be able to do much against except Shield, Roll, Side-Step or Jump. Don't jump forward to much here or you're begging to be Forward Aired."
*more to be added as i got to go to work. Please add your own opinions on matchups.