Sheik Changes List

[Ankoku]

So, for SMYN 34, I got to play some Brawl, where I basically used Sheik the whole time. Here's some videos of my gameplay:
vs Dedede - http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZGk2n0hZvn4
vs Jigglypuff - http://youtube.com/watch?v=u-V4gQSy310
vs Wario - http://youtube.com/watch?v=hI50OYjt19Q
vs DK - http://youtube.com/watch?v=jgC_SzB6LoQ
vs Ike - http://youtube.com/watch?v=JTpPyPIl0Q0

This is what I've found so far from playing Sheik:

Buffs
Fsmash hits harder, and severely punishes bad DI.
Vanish has very reduced landing lag.
Up+B out of shield is, oddly enough, a viable tactic since her Vanish's knockback has inexplicably been buffed to KO power.
Dsmash has a shorter cooldown time, leaving her open for a shorter amount of time than in Melee.
Her tilts have weaker knockback. While this may seem bad at first, it actually means that her tilts now combo into more tilts. Sheik's utilt has stronger knockback and damage, on the second hit. It can't really combo into anything, though.

Her chain recovery is actually a recovery now.
Shorthop seems a little lower than her Melee shorthop, though it might just be because of characters being larger in Brawl.
Her tag disappears when you're in Vanish.
Sheik's uthrow has less ending lag than in Melee. It's easier to follow up from this than it is from dthrow.
Sheik can crawl and cling to walls.
Nerfs
Dash attack and Dthrow no longer combo effectively. Oddly enough, when the opponent DIs fthrow or bthrow, they can be popped straight up, which causes more stun time than dthrow.

Dsmash has similar knockback, but can be DI'd extremely vertical now.
It seems to be impossible to sweetspot the ledge with Vanish from above.
Transform takes forever and a day. : (
Fair doesn't KO until 150%. Learn to use bair and nair. All of Sheik's aerials have been nerfed, though to a lesser extent than fair.
On the bright side, ftilt combos into fair at 150%.

You can no longer cancel needle throwing lag by landing during the animation.
You can no longer needle cancel turnaround if you already have fully charged needles.
Needles are relatively weak in Brawl, unable to cancel projectiles effortlessly like they did in Melee.
Using the Chain as an attack is rather difficult now. The non-sweetspot areas have roughly no hitstun, and characters can easily recover through any attempts to edgeguard with it.
Changes
Needles work differently. You tap B once to start charging, tap again to throw, press R all the way down to stop charging, and left or right while standing to roll.
In exchange for the lack of dash canceling or dashdancing, Sheik's foxtrot isn't half bad.
Dair is... different. Sheik will pause in the air, then drop down faster than her fastfall speed with the dair.
The side hitboxes of Sheik's usmash now sends people away. Her upper hitbox still sends people straight up.

More will be added if I find them.

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Good job Ankoku, the sheik boards need a list like this. Very well organized!

EDIT: Up B is actually one of her 3 most powerful moves, it was posted on Brawcentral about a month ago and everyone totally freaked out.

[Greenpoe]

Thanks! This explains much better why Sheik didn't look so good in a lot of the videos, it's such a different Sheik! Sounds like if enough people play her, she can be high tier again with some modern strategies for her.

[scotu]

Don't bother using Transform.


lol, i hear that's one of sheik's best moves.

[Ztarfish]

lol, i hear that's one of sheik's best moves.

QFT:laugh:

[Ankoku]

It's both characters' worst moves. Anything that just sets you up to get Ike fsmash'd is unusable.

[Krytha]

It's both characters' worst moves. Anything that just sets you up to get Ike fsmash'd is unusable.

That's why you use it in the air...

[Greenpoe]

Couldn't you hit them with a power move (bair, nair, smash, etc.) at a percent high enough so they fly decently far away, then change, KO with Zelda, and switch to Sheik again?

Is the down B viable AT ALL for recover or ledge-stalling?

[0RLy]

Does Shiek still have a large grab range and is she decent at shield dashing?

[Ankoku]

Grab range seems to be decent. By shield dashing, you mean running and then sliding along in a shield? If so, it's not terrible.

That's why you use it in the air...
Have you done this yet? Unless it suspends you in the air, which I've yet to try, it still doesn't help at all, because Transform lasts for around four times as long as Melee now.

[Krytha]

Have you done this yet? Unless it suspends you in the air, which I've yet to try, it still doesn't help at all, because Transform lasts for around four times as long as Melee now.

It doesn't halt your drop rate completely, but it slows it down enough for transform to be completed before you hit the ground again. Invincibility frames in a place where the other person can't reach you properly? I'm definitely seeing this as a great way to swap between the two - if you can adopt the right strategy.

[SeventhSage]

Finally someone post what I wanted to know. Thanks for the info.

[Ankoku]

I added two vids of my playing. Enjoy the super-long Transform sequence in the beginning because I forgot to start as Sheik, and the random Vanish KO for a ledge-attack punishment.

[daemonk]

I still can't effectively fox trot with Sheik. How exactly do you do it?

I can see foxtrotting being pretty useful though. Biggest advantage is that there is no stopping animation right? You can actually foxtrot up to opponent and do an attack immediately?

[Ankoku]

I think it's wholly a timing thing... but I don't remember being able to go from a dash into an attack immediately in Melee by foxtrot, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Best thing about Foxtrot is you can do pivot any attack pretty much immediately, as well as being able to turn around through dash dancing almost whenever.

The problem with hitting them away and then transforming is that you give up an opportunity to chase them, as well as the fact that most of sheik's attacks only hit them away far enough at high percents.

[schep]

You said that the short hop was lower than it was in Melee, but how in relation to Melee is the difficulty to perform the short hop? Easier, the same, or harder?

-Y-peace-Y-

[RyokoYaksa]

I have some additional and unorganized thoughts from my playing as Sheik.

*Dsmash animation is quicker, thus not leaving Sheik as open afterwards. The power of it feels roughly the same as it was in Melee (where it honestly wasn't too strong to begin with). I dunno what the nerf calls are about.

*Essentially every aerial has been nerfed to some extent, but especially the Fair. Bair is weaker, Uair is weaker, Nair is still strong but requires very precise timing to get the full power out of it. Dair is largely situational.

*Fsmash is tough to utilize as the first kick can frequently push them out of range of the second kick if it's spaced too far/DI'd. I dunno about "bad" DI with this, because this move is exceptionally easy to DI being two kicks in slow sequence.

*It is impossible to sweetspot Vanish from above unless you do it from the max distance of Vanish (you will sail past the edge and die otherwise). You can sweetspot from below the edge or directly horizontally from the edge.

*You will want to use Transform at many opportunities since Zelda is that much better now, particularly at KO'ing which Sheik now sucks at. However, you will need to create a huge opening to do it since the move lasts about a full second longer. This may not sound bad except there isn't as much hit stun in this game, and Sheik doesn't really have the power to even knock enemies that far to Transform safely at reasonable percents.

*In addition to what you have about Needles, you also cannot use the Needle turnaround trick when you have a full charge of them. You will just fire them all in the direction you wanted instead. If you like using this technique, then you will constantly have to keep yourself short one needle. And of course, if you just want to fire them then you will need to tap B twice in this case. The needles also lack a "living hitbox" as in Melee. They are very easy to cancel out now. One example being a full Needle Storm being unable to do anything except slow down Snake's Nikita.

*Sheik's Utilt has higher knockback and damage (centered in the 2nd hit, now), but more lag. It's good for ending an Ftilt string if they're too high for another Ftilt to connect. However, this move cannot really combo into anything.

*The Chain as an attack is very difficult to work with now. Unless you hit the enemy with tippers, they will punish you. The inner part of the Chain has almost no stun on hit despite its damage. It can still be used to cancel out certain projectiles with a bit more reliability than the Melee incarnation.

*The side hitboxes of Usmash now rather powerfully send people outwards away from Sheik. The upper hitbox still sends people straight up. Hitting twice with this move also seems more common.

*Sheik's Uthrow has much less lag than in Melee, and I felt that it was easier to attempt to follow up with than Dthrow.

*Sheik's crawling is an underrated form of approach, especially against projectile spam and lateral attacks such as Marth's shield breaker. Sheik's wall cling is something I've yet to utilize, but I imagine it's useful for harassing people trying to sweetspot the edge.

[Ankoku]

Wow, thanks! I'll be sure to add this info when I get the chance. One thing I'm wondering, though, by "quicker," do you mean the dsmash ends faster, or has a shorter startup time? I haven't gotten a chance to get actual frame data, but I'd find it hard to notice something even a little faster than Melee Sheik's 4-frame startup dsmash.

[behemoth]

Two quick questions:

First, I heard there were invincibility frames on the latter half of the transformation, which would make it a smidgen easier to use (I've been practicing with Zelda in case I can work her in).

Secondly, what are you finding your kills with? Are you just comboing them up to 170% and then bairing or have usmashes and dsmashes been successful?


Oh, I guess I have a third. Dsmash was amazing for knocking people out of recovery (i.e. Fox's illusion), can it still be utilized in the same way?

Thanks for the answers. I'll be playing Brawl some time this week and try to investigate anything that still needs it.

[Ankoku]

You're pretty much invincible for the full second it takes to transform, but you're completely vulnerable during the "I'm done transforming!" part of the animation.

I'm pretty much just bairing them a lot, though there are some other possible things. As I said, fair still does have killing power at that high of a %, and ftilt combos into aerials. Usmash and fsmash are viable KO attacks, though like Ryoko said, it's not difficult to DI out of the fsmash. Also Vanish for the lulz. You can watch my videos to see what I do, though I haven't gotten a chance to really play Brawl a huge amount yet.

Sheik's dsmash can be used to edgeguard people who can't grab the ledge, I guess, but that's rather rare in Brawl. If you actually want to edgeguard, you're better off learning the limits of your recovery so that you can throw out aerials from as far off-stage as possible.

[daemonk]

The greatest thing about the up smash IMO is that you can directly go into it without a stop animation when running towards someone. It will even slide you a little bit forward while you up smash.

[behemoth]

Okay, I want to get this straight:

the tech is dash then up on the c-stick, right? This is the only smash that can be done out of a dash unless you dash cancel (down on the joystick), correct?

If so, how will you use the new boxes of her smash? Will you go for the tipper or is the side impact great enough that you will start it early, hoping to hit them with her arms extended at her side?

My suggestion would be go for the side unless you've trained them to shield your dashes, then this is a mix-up from the usual dash grab.

Whaddya think?

[Ankoku]

You can't dash-cancel in Brawl. Up on the C-Stick does a usmash whether you were standing, walking, or running. Not if you were crouching, though. Holding up or down on the control stick makes the C-Stick perform tilts instead of smashes.

You're likely not going to get the upper hitbox unless they're approaching you from above in a stupid manner or you somehow combo'd into it.

You have one of the ideas right, though. It is a potential mixup against people who shield approaches early, provided you can time punishing the shieldgrab right.

[behemoth]

Hey, out of curiosity, can fthrow or bthrow combo into a sliding usmash at middle percentages?

If it could it would be a hell of a combo starter.

Or, if you dashed, hit down on the joystick and up on the c-stick and managed to snag them with an uptilt? Or is its startup time too slow?

Btw, thanks for sharing this info, I love kicking around ideas this way. :chuckle:

[Ankoku]

fthrow and bthrow are weak and have weak hitstun, too. The only time you'll combo off of them is if the opponent somehow DI's them toward and up, causing them to pop up and let you combo with a quick aerial. Most of the time it's more useful for throwing them off the stage so you can attempt to keep them off.

You can't dash cancel. And you can't tilt unless you're walking, standing, or crouching. So you'd have to go through the whole "not running anymore" animation before pulling off a tilt.

btw, I don't actually own the game, so people like RyokoYaksa will usually be able to give more detailed information. What I know is from playing experience, not dedicated playtesting, and is bound to lack some details or have some inaccuracies.

Now you're making me consider starting just a general Sheik thread to hold all the info.

[behemoth]

Oh, okay. I misunderstood you to be saying that you couldn't smash dash cancel. So there is no advantage where speed is concerned in trying what I was saying.

I think that a general Sheik thread would be great.

Would it be worth my time to compile a list of bread-and-butter Sheik melee combos and discuss their effectiveness in Brawl?

I wanna contribute too. Not to mention I dig any time spent studying Sheik.