My gripe: a lot of chars now actually bring ITEMS in game...

[SiriusGold]

I've been wondering about that, seriously...
Though they are part of a character's move and though they won't be banned for it, it strikes me that in Brawl you can actually get even more items in play than you did before.

Link's bombs were not exactly the samething. Though they could be used by the opponent, how often did it really happen?

Now you have Dedede, Wario, Diddy, Sonic, Snake... who literraly bring usable items on ground.
Dedede shoots little enemies at you who walk around. I think you can pick them up, though I don't remember at the moment. You can at least hit them.
Diddy can pull out 2 bananas at a time, and they stay on the field for a while, giving you the possibility to pick them up anytime. Of course, slipping on them too.
Sonic brings a spring which gives you the possibility to super-high jump...
Snake hides bombs into the ground.

The worst has to be Wario though. The motorcycle is pickable, and when destroyed, a bunch of parts just become items! I can see someone picking up a tire to throw it at the opponent trying to come back on stage...

I don't know, just got me wondering...

[ihavespaceballs]

So? They're part of a characters moveset, and you can actually learn how to avoid and use them. The only problem with standard items is the way they get on the stage, i.e. appearing unannounced in random spots at random times.

[Pink Reaper]

Link's bombs were not exactly the samething. Though they could be used by the opponent, how often did it really happen?

1 out of every 3 bombs thrown at me is caught and throw back at my opponent >_>

Edit: WTF is this doing in tournament discussion?

[shadydentist]

ihavespaceballs is absolutely right. Theres no inherent unfairness when the items are part of a moveset. Furthermore, none of the pulled items are that powerful, anyways.

[D.A.N.]

I think people aren't paying attention to why competitive play doesn't use items. It's not because items are bad or anything, it's because they come in at random and change the course of a competitive game. It's completely different when a character can use it at his own will, and it isn't a problem at all.

[vZakat]

Another problem with regular items is that the containers carrying items have a chance of exploding (at least in Melee, don't know about Brawl).

[Rockettrainer]

The only real problem is possibly Dedede's Waddle Dee throw. The fact that he can randomly throw capsules that can contain items poses the real questions as to whether or not items should be turned off individually. You have to turn off items individually now, or they can still spawn from character attacks (i.e. with G&W, you have to turn the food item off manually as well as all items off, otherwise food can still appear when he gets a 7). It's luck based, kind of like Peach's Turnip pick in Melee, but items are inherently unbalanced. Only certain items can be spawned from Dedede's capsule throw, and there is a list of them in the character discussion. If you turn off the capsule option, then he'll never throw one.

[Red Mange]

I thought the problem with items was always just the randomness of exploding containers appearing? Their is no randomness involved in characters throwing out items, so why should it be a problem?

[lengeta]

I think people aren't paying attention to why competitive play doesn't use items. It's not because items are bad or anything, it's because they come in at random and change the course of a competitive game. It's completely different when a character can use it at his own will, and it isn't a problem at all.

Also, your able to turn off exploding containers, so items can definitely be reconsidered for competitive play. Judging from the general community's outlook though, I doubt we'll be seeing items and Final Smashes.

[Mic_128]

To me, Dedede throwing a capsule is just as fair as Peach chucking a bob-omb.

[The wrath of Koarin]

I am thinking Sakura did this on purpose

[SockNinja]

So? They're part of a characters moveset, and you can actually learn how to avoid and use them. The only problem with standard items is the way they get on the stage, i.e. appearing unannounced in random spots at random times.

There are specific places that items spawn, at they spawn at predictable rates. sorry, all arguments against items suck.

especially because you can turn off exploding containers

[squarez]

These items probably wont be that bad once everyone gets used to brawl.

[shadydentist]

Quoting myself from a different thread,

Randomness is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a sort of fairness that comes from total randomness, where the better player will win out in the long run. A good example of this is poker: though the assigned cards are random, over the course of the game the best player will typically win.

However, this comes over the course of dozens of hands. In what has now become the standard three stocks, there is simply not enough time for the randomness to sort itself out. Therefore, I believe that items should remain off.

[SockNinja]

Quoting myself from a different thread,

Randomness is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a sort of fairness that comes from total randomness, where the better player will win out in the long run. A good example of this is poker: though the assigned cards are random, over the course of the game the best player will typically win.

However, this comes over the course of dozens of hands. In what has now become the standard three stocks, there is simply not enough time for the randomness to sort itself out. Therefore, I believe that items should remain off.

this is a good point, and I think this is also why the game is set by default to time battle. While I wouldn't really WANT to play time battle, I think it makes sense that no matter what random **** happens, the guy thats doing better will still end up winning.

Unfortunately this takes a lot of the suspense out of the game. I still think that 4stock matches are fine for items. The reason we have four lives and not just one like in every other fighting game, is that there are tons of things that can happen in a game of smash.


I really think you guys should start with EVERYTHING on when brawl comes out, and remove things as necessary, and not just ban things from the game because you assume they are "gay".

I myself have not played brawl yet so I cant really say whether the items are balanced or not, but I know it was a huge mistake to just flat out remove them from melee, and i can see people just assuming they know what the right answer is before experimenting. so i beg you guys, think for yourselves, experiment, and learn this new game.

[BloodMagnumX]

this is a good point, and I think this is also why the game is set by default to time battle. While I wouldn't really WANT to play time battle, I think it makes sense that no matter what random **** happens, the guy thats doing better will still end up winning.

Unfortunately this takes a lot of the suspense out of the game. I still think that 4stock matches are fine for items. The reason we have four lives and not just one like in every other fighting game, is that there are tons of things that can happen in a game of smash.


I really think you guys should start with EVERYTHING on when brawl comes out, and remove things as necessary, and not just ban things from the game because you assume they are "gay".

I myself have not played brawl yet so I cant really say whether the items are balanced or not, but I know it was a huge mistake to just flat out remove them from melee, and i can see people just assuming they know what the right answer is before experimenting. so i beg you guys, think for yourselves, experiment, and learn this new game.

Wow, someone that actually feels the same as I do about items. While I feel this most was worded in a somewhat mean fashion, it does bring up a point about the skill of the player. Since we're all learning something new with Brawl, why not throw items in there? The same thing that some of us are saying for items could be said for stages with walls. Smart players would learn to either avoid walls so that they don't get caught in an infinite combo, or use the walls to their advantage. Smash is a battle of both the mind, and the fingers. We learn to adjust very easily. Say someone comes up with a killer move that all characters can use. We either learn that move, or adjust to counter it.

As for characters creating items (bear with me on this), you could use your same reasoning on Samus' charge shot. It's created by Samus, but characters such as Fox or Zelda can reflect it and use it against Samus. Would that not be the same as hitting Pit in the head with Wario's bike wheel? It's just another mechanic of the game, and if the game is played the way it's supposed to be, there won't be any problems. Removing G&W's ability to make food is the same as taking away Link's boomerang. Sorry for the essay, I just wanted to get my point across.

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Items fail for tournament play. Get over it.

[HyperTheHedgehog]

I think people aren't paying attention to why competitive play doesn't use items. It's not because items are bad or anything, it's because they come in at random and change the course of a competitive game. It's completely different when a character can use it at his own will, and it isn't a problem at all.

This + exploding crates