Could items be allowed in Brawl Tournys?

[metaXzero]

I recently learned that the capsules/crates/barrels/anything that randomly explodes can be turned off in Brawl. This makes me wonder, with those finally gone, could some items be put back into tournaments? :confused:

On one hand they do alter the playing field, making the outcome a bit unpredictable. A losing opponent could suddenly find a beam sword and go on to win the match.

On the other hand, unlike random exploding capsules, they aren't gauranteed to swerve the match into an instant (and accidental) victory/defeat. Most experienced fighters know how to work around bludgeoning weapons or projectiles.

I'm not saying all items could be available in tournaments (I hate Hammers, and Stars). I'm just saying since we don't have to worry about a capsule appearing while you attack and killing you, could they be allowed to appear?

Please comment. Apologies if their is a similar thread.

P.S. And if their was another reason besides explosives that items were banned, please tell me.

[Firestorm88]

Some items would still be completely broken. If items spawn at certain time intervals at specific locations (think weapon spawns in an FPS), then I can see some of them being turned on. Not items like bob-ombs, smart bombs, Heart Containers, Starman, Smash Balls, etc but maybe the less broken items. Read Kirby Kid's article on it.

Realistically, I think they'll all be banned more out of simplicity than anything. A ruleset where we have to state exactly which items are banned would make the game just a bit too complicated for those trying to first get into competitive Smash.

Either way, you'll basically have to wait for the Back Room to come up with something. Tournament Discussion and Brawl Discussion boards aren't exactly the decision making areas of SmashBoards.

[SockNinja]

You'll have to wait for a bunch of self-important nerds to decide what's "gay"

[Insane-Contrast]

No. Better to be safe, yeah? Items are casual fun.

[S2]

You'll have to wait for a bunch of self-important nerds to decide what's "gay"


That has nothing to do with what does or does not get banned.

The decision to ban something comes out of it being broken for tournament play, not simply because people don't like them.


Items did exist in West Coast tournaments for Melee in the beginning. You run into the problem of players bickering over which items are fair and which ones aren't. "Fair" being whether they give an overwhelming advantage or not to one player while they have the item. Something like the warp star is pretty much avoidable with any character if you know the timing, but other items (like ones you hold) threw the balance off tremendously. Usually in the favor of top tier characters, making the tier gap even bigger.

Turning items off was a solution to the problem of deciding if certain debatable items should be allowed or not.

That's not even fully true, Items off came out of a variety of factors (the exploding barrels being one of them) stemming from tournament fairness. Not because "self important nerds" didn't like them.

[Falconv1.0]

Eh, any item I've sen either is broken, or poses more of a disadvantage than advantage.

Examples would be like a hamer compared to a beam sword...seriously, what do you gain from a beam sword? And the game just isn't fun with items. Thay add nothing to the game, and msot of the time, the only people who want items dont play competetively.

[phish-it]

Eh, any item I've sen either is broken, or poses more of a disadvantage than advantage.

Examples would be like a hamer compared to a beam sword...seriously, what do you gain from a beam sword? And the game just isn't fun with items. Thay add nothing to the game, and msot of the time, the only people who want items dont play competetively.

I hate when people become too involved on "how the game should be played", I mean, if items aren't fun then why the would you include them in the first place?

[SilverKnight]

"Would you all like to know why items and FS's should not be included in competitive play?

Short answer, they make the fight stale and less entertaining for the competitive player.

This may shock or arose your attention however this is very logical...

While certain items do not make the fight unfair, competitive players simply do not enjoy a fight of item throwing and the mindless running to smash balls... What we do enjoy is a battle of absolutes. Skill is the only medium, and intensity is assured. With nothing to rely on but our moves and ingenuity... Smash becomes a battle of wits and reflexes. Believe it or not... we actually prefer to make matches intense. Anyone can KO someone with an item without having to put themselves in danger, but it takes more effort to do it yourself... You have to actually engage the opponent to do so...

Getting close to the opponent is not an easy task... as the opponent is fighting back. This promotes an actual fight where both players interact. It's much more amusing, and significantly more impressive.
This is why boxers and real wrestlers do not use items during a fight. Sure, Muhhamed Ali could utterly destroy his opponent with a steel bat, but he did not come to the ring for that... he came to fight with his fists.

We competitive smashers come to the battle to fight with our skill, not with items."

- Myself, on another forum.

[PXG]

Items = Casual play / messing around

Other than that....NO

No items in competitive play/ tournaments.

[xbrinkx]

Shouldn't this go in the Brawl section, and not the Melee one? But yah, items always have that tendency to be very random and eratic, even without exploding containers. Say... An item showed up right in front of the guy losing and the entire match was altered because he through the baseball bat back at the other guy. Not very fair.

[BloodMagnumX]

Shouldn't this go in the Brawl section, and not the Melee one? But yah, items always have that tendency to be very random and eratic, even without exploding containers. Say... An item showed up right in front of the guy losing and the entire match was altered because he through the baseball bat back at the other guy. Not very fair.
Uh, the only way he would have altered the match then and not made a total fool of himself by missing would be if the winning guy didn't know how do dodge a flying baseball bat. The only possible way that would have happened would be if he normally didn't play with items. In my opinion it's the same as if you choose to play on "Single-Button Melee." You're taking a common mechanic out of the game. Really, playing with items could be considered a deeper play level, as they cause the player to think even faster than normal. Please note that what I'm saying only applies to simple items, not god-power items like the hammer. Players adjust, and items would add another angle to fighting. It's not that hard to learn, and it would open up new possibilities in play styles.

[ILOVESMASHBROTHERS]

yah we shuld not only ban itams but we should ban luigi because his over-b has a random int attached to it as well as peach because her turnips spawn randomly

[quinn95]

I dont think they will. its like you said the item could turn the game around. cheap.

[SothE700k]

"Would you all like to know why items and FS's should not be included in competitive play?

Short answer, they make the fight stale and less entertaining for the competitive player.

This may shock or arose your attention however this is very logical...

While certain items do not make the fight unfair, competitive players simply do not enjoy a fight of item throwing and the mindless running to smash balls... What we do enjoy is a battle of absolutes. Skill is the only medium, and intensity is assured. With nothing to rely on but our moves and ingenuity... Smash becomes a battle of wits and reflexes. Believe it or not... we actually prefer to make matches intense. Anyone can KO someone with an item without having to put themselves in danger, but it takes more effort to do it yourself... You have to actually engage the opponent to do so...

Getting close to the opponent is not an easy task... as the opponent is fighting back. This promotes an actual fight where both players interact. It's much more amusing, and significantly more impressive.
This is why boxers and real wrestlers do not use items during a fight. Sure, Muhhamed Ali could utterly destroy his opponent with a steel bat, but he did not come to the ring for that... he came to fight with his fists.

We competitive smashers come to the battle to fight with our skill, not with items."

- Myself, on another forum.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/tommyvance04/1200973592928.jpg

[YodaBrawler24]

I think they can, especially in this next one coming up soon.

[xigon]

Considering that items were allowed in the previous tournaments, Its a strong possibility that it returns.

[Dark Sonic]

Considering that items were allowed in the previous tournaments, Its a strong possibility that it returns.

No. Considering that items were not allowed in the later tournaments, it's a strong possiblity that they don't return.

[GuMz]

yeah the only item that we need is smash balls. Im telling you they could change the tide of a battle :)

[Wiseguy]

Why are these debates always all-or-nothing? If we can hold both 1 vs 1 and Team toureys, why not have both item and non item tourneys? Then everyone gets what they want.

[PXG]

Oh for Christ's sake, not this **** again. Please...How many horses must be beat. We discussed this to DEATH in the thread in the General Brawl Discussion.

NO. No items or smash balls. They will remain banned until a workaround is a established. Until then, absolutely no items or smash balls are allowed in competitive or tournament play. Their random and unbalanced nature goes against our methods, which attempt/ensure a fair and even playing field. Competitive Smash and tournaments are fought with skill and ingenuity ONLY. The interference of RANDOM and uncontrollable elements diminsh the competitive and skill based environment we attempt to establish.

If you want to play with items or make your own tournaments that allow items, you have every right to do so. However, the competitive community isn't going to change its stand, until a (HIGHLY unlikely) workaround is found against items and game breaking FSes.

So again. NO! Please, stop bringing this topic up guys. We've been going in circles about it.

[The Drizzle]

yeah the only item that we need is smash balls. Im telling you they could change the tide of a battle :)

How is something that one person can luckily grab and turn from a loss to a win a good thing.

Items should be off in any serious tournament. If people want to use them in friendlies, whatever.

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I am so glad none of these Brawl newbies are in the SBR. All the actual players would be screwed.

[GuMz]

^ pssh people are afraid of change...

[Wildfire393]

There are really two major complaints when it comes to items:

1) Items unbalance/de-skill the game and are too Luck-Based - The existence of a random variable with such drastic possible outcomes simply throws the game out of balance. I was playing in melee the single-player All-Star mode on VERY EASY, and a fairly high percentage of the time, I would be incapable of completing it without losing a life. Why? Not the computers, who die in one shot, certainly. Because of spontaneous generation of items. Numerous times an explosive would appear in the way of an attack I was doing. One time, a party ball opened where I was charging a smash, and a tiny mushroom fell out on top of me, and a green shell fell in to the trajectory of the attack, bounced off the opponent in front of me, and star killed me at 40%. Literally about half the time I see a starman, it appears falling directly on top of somebody. Ditto with hammers. Playing 1v1's with items, literally about half of each players stock are determined by items. Basically, it turns 4-stock games in to 2-stock games. And that's assuming neither player gets an unusually lucky streak. Which is the main complaint: It turns the game from a game of skill more in to a game of luck.

2) Items eliminate character differences - Characters are different. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Link has three kinds of projectiles, which seems great. Samus has some of the few projectiles that can kill. But if every character has access to several dozen types of projectiles, these things don't mean anything. Items eliminate the differences between characters, making it so that you play whatever items you can pick up, not whichever character you chose. Peach has the disadvantage of her melee moves having low range. But not if she picks up a beam sword. Bowser lacks fast jab moves, but not with a fan. Jigglypuff lacks a kill move, but not with a Home Run Bat. Etc. What makes matters worse is that items only usually have four moves: Jab, tilt, smash, and throw. Most items are significantly more powerful than a character's actual moveset (and if they aren't, they have 0 impact, so why are you trying to turn them on?), which reduces character's movesets to 4 moves. And considering this eliminates aerials and grabs, this is not good for gameplay.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Not necesarilly. I play with items with my cousin and I still win without resorting to them.
Some items do not help the character. Like Marth with a Beam sword. Slower and weaker than his normal forward smash. If you learn what items hinder characters, you can use that to your advantage and punish your opponent for it. Shield grabbing is difficult so I would recommend practicing grabbing items during triangle jumps. I lol whenever my cousin throws a pokeball at me and I catch it since the pokeball is mine now. Anyway back to Brawl....
I think Smash Balls should be turned on for the first few tournaments. Remember that it takes timing, power, and precision to destroy one and certain character's FS are stronger than others. One thing not to forget is the Pity Final Smash system. I wonder if it works in stock? Will whoever has the import of Brawl please tell us if the Pity FS applies in stock and at what difference?

[PXG]

Not necesarilly. I play with items with my cousin and I still win without resorting to them.

Your cousin isn't a viable barometer for a competitive opponent in a tournament. Just a mere anecdote.

Some items do not help the character. Like Marth with a Beam sword. Slower and weaker than his normal forward smash. If you learn what items hinder characters, you can use that to your advantage and punish your opponent for it.

Still, items appear at random times and in random places. Anything that cannot be controlled in the playing field has to be banned in order to ensure fair fight. Also, anyone, at any skill level (noob or pro) can ***** an item and totally exploit its power. Competition is about using your skill in order to prove that you're the best, not taking advantage of random elements.

Shield grabbing is difficult

No its not.

so I would recommend practicing grabbing items during triangle jumps. I lol whenever my cousin throws a pokeball at me and I catch it since the pokeball is mine now. Anyway back to Brawl....

I don't want to get personal or be a jerk, but it doesn't sound like you or your cousin are that skilled at the game, or have ever played in any competitive enviroment.

I think Smash Balls should be turned on for the first few tournaments. Remember that it takes timing, power, and precision to destroy one and certain character's FS are stronger than others.

Fses can only be obtained with an item. And since items are random and cannot be controlled, they must be banned. Plus, how do you go about dodging, say, Peach or Marth's FS? Peach's hitbox takes up the entire screen and Marth's in an AUTOMATIC KO

One thing not to forget is the Pity Final Smash system. I wonder if it works in stock? Will whoever has the import of Brawl please tell us if the Pity FS applies in stock and at what difference?

So you are suggesting (if its even possible) that we implement a way that allows players to "come back" in order to compensate for over powered and game breaking FSes? That's just silly. We want to make as fair as a fight as possible. However, its just makes things more convoluted and nonsensical to allow an unbalanced element in the game, yet, have it so people can make up for being KOed, by the, said, "game breakers".

Having any items or FSes at all diminshes the purpose as to why we play competitively and hold tournaments. We play for skill, pride and money. Its about being fair, but not so "fair" as to let people who aren't so good, to have a chance, or to let someone come back from a cheap KO. Its not about being lucky or exploiting broken aspects of the game. You play with your skill and knowledge of the game, thats it. Nothing else.

[BloodMagnumX]

Well items like hammers and stars wouldn't be allowed, as they DO give players a major advantage. But things like beam swords and fans just give players another method of play. Sure, they appear randomly, but you can knock them out of your opponent's hands, and they don't really make you much stronger. I see this from both perspectives, and I really wish some people would look at what Wiseguy said...

As for what PXG said, man you're being irritating. You come in here, act like a jerk, and ruin the thread. Your reasoning is poor, and your thinking is limited. Brawl is balanced, man. So there are some things with FS's and other items, but hey, tournys aren't just for "skill, pride and money," they're really to have FUN! Items are an integral part of Smash, and since players are so differing in opinions on this, I think we should go with what Wiseguy mentioned. This is a hot topic, and shouldn't be treated with 1-sided answers. Items need to be looked at as a possibility, but not taken whole-heartedly or shot down. Check your self and think before you post. You talk about skill, yet you don't understand that there is skill to using items. A Smash noob understands this, yet some of the best players think they are idiots. Poke-ball esque randomness is bad, but items showing up? They need to be looked at a little more closely.

[-Risky-]

eeuuuggghh, these debates sap my willpower, lets just leave it to the SBR shall we?

They decide what happens, and it's not like they care what any of us has to say

I just can't stand one more of these debates

[オビ (Obi)]

Considering that items were allowed in the previous tournaments, Its a strong possibility that it returns.

I hate to pop your bubble Xigon, but items won't be available for the tournaments. The guys on the SBR are working on that and they have confirm that there won't be any items. But what I heard that they are still discussing is the stages.

Like some of the guys have already said, items disrupt the matches. I know you wouldn't like to be on the losers bracket of a tourny with a noob and lose because he use the homerun bat to win, now would you?

[CogSmooch]

Just fans should be turned on................

[The Drizzle]

^ pssh people are afraid of change...

Its not that I am afraid of change, and I don't believe most players in general are either, as Brawl itself seems like it will play very differently than Melee anyways. Its the fact that, items, and especially smash balls, are just going to give a person who gets lucky and grabs them/it, an extreme advantage alot of the time. You said yourself that they "could really change the tide of a battle". That isn't a good thing at all. If someone is winning by their own skill, and someone makes a comeback, not by exploiting a mistake the other person made or through THEIR own skill, but by a lucky grab of a randomly spawning item, how could they have possibly deserved that win?

As for what PXG said, man you're being irritating. You come in here, act like a jerk, and ruin the thread. Your reasoning is poor, and your thinking is limited. Brawl is balanced, man. So there are some things with FS's and other items, but hey, tournys aren't just for "skill, pride and money," they're really to have FUN! Items are an integral part of Smash, and since players are so differing in opinions on this, I think we should go with what Wiseguy mentioned. This is a hot topic, and shouldn't be treated with 1-sided answers. Items need to be looked at as a possibility, but not taken whole-heartedly or shot down. Check your self and think before you post. You talk about skill, yet you don't understand that there is skill to using items. A Smash noob understands this, yet some of the best players think they are idiots. Poke-ball esque randomness is bad, but items showing up? They need to be looked at a little more closely.

I honestly agree with PXG. Tournaments involve prizes/ money. Sure, theres going to be the casual players just there for fun and a chance to win, but most people go just wanting to win. Competitive environments are always going to be about "skill, pride and money".

[Razorsaw]

The decision to ban something comes out of it being broken for tournament play, not simply because people don't like them.


So... then why is the use of the tier system and a number of common techniques encouraged? I'm not asking to be a smart alec, I'm asking because I don't understand.

How are items and luck based stuff more broken and less stale than everyone using the same general strategies and same half dozen characters?

[shadydentist]

Picking a good character isn't affected by luck. Being able to perform certain strategies is also not affected by luck.

[Razorsaw]

No, it's not. But it's not exactly CLEVER from the way I've seen it described. We call something broken if it's overused, isn't it? I've seen this in the Pokemon fandom. Salamence is "top tier", but using pokemon like him is where variety and cleverness disappears. You're using what everyone else is doing.

[kenkowtow]

No, it's not. But it's not exactly CLEVER from the way I've seen it described. We call something broken if it's overused, isn't it? I've seen this in the Pokemon fandom. Salamence is "top tier", but using pokemon like him is where variety and cleverness disappears. You're using what everyone else is doing.

Yeah..... is it a problem that many of the top players use virtually the same characters?

Doesn't it just mean that those characters are confirmed to be very good?

Also, you are misinformed as to what "Broken" is. If I explain it, it will probably sound strange and all here's a segment from Sirlin.net

Here’s an example of the grayest area of all. Many versions of Street Fighter have “secret characters” that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good, sometimes they’re not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game, as in Marvel vs. Capcom. Big deal. That’s the way that game is. Live with it. But the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character was Super Turbo Street Fighter with its untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is “broken” in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He’s miles above the other characters, and is therefore banned in all tournaments. But every game has a “best character” and those characters are never banned. They’re just part of the game…except in Super Turbo. It’s extreme examples like this that even amongst the top players, and even something that isn’t a bug, but was put in on purpose by the game designers, the community as a whole has unanimously decided to make the rule: “don’t play Akuma in serious matches.”

Original work: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

[Razorsaw]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Thank you.

[metaXzero]

Hmm. Might as well post my thoughts again.

Not every item is inherently broken. Just because someone happens to get a Home-run bat doesn't mean they will win. A skilled fighter should be able to work their way around it.

Technically, I've been anti-item up to now due to explosives (the other broken items could be turned off). But since you can turn those off (along with barrels that can roll into players from off screen) in Brawl, I figured maybe the whole luck factor wouldn't be so drastic.

Anyway, items add another layer to matches. They force players to keep thinking during matches about their actions. They are also part of what seperates Smash from other fighters. Broken items have no place in tournys though.
Final Smashes unfortunately, fit into the brken item category. So I can't support them in tournys.

[The Drizzle]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Thank you.

I know you get it from that post, but just to add, I don't see why you brought Pokemon tiers into the discussion, when theres an Uber tier of banned pokemon in normal, competitive play to begin with :$

[BloodMagnumX]

Hmm. Might as well post my thoughts again.

Not every item is inherently broken. Just because someone happens to get a Home-run bat doesn't mean they will win. A skilled fighter should be able to work their way around it.

Technically, I've been anti-item up to now due to explosives (the other broken items could be turned off). But since you can turn those off (along with barrels that can roll into players from off screen) in Brawl, I figured maybe the whole luck factor wouldn't be so drastic.

Anyway, items add another layer to matches. They force players to keep thinking during matches about their actions. They are also part of what seperates Smash from other fighters. Broken items have no place in tournys though.
Final Smashes unfortunately, fit into the brken item category. So I can't support them in tournys.
I totally agree, though I think Smash Balls might need to be reconsidered. Items don't "ruin" matches, if a player gets an item, they may have an upgrade power-wise, but they become dependent and therefore predictable. Anything like a beam sword or fan isn't broken, it's just an item. Have fun people!

[Bailey]

Nope no items ever. They ruin will They are for fun not competitive play.