Ness vs Lucas

[Aevin]

There was a lot of speculation as to the differences between these two characters before Brawl was released in Japan. Now that some people have had the opportunity to play them, I haven't seen a comparison thread looking at how their moves actually act. Many people say that Ness is obviously inferior to Lucas, but I disagree.

In general, I find that Lucas is about keeping opponents further away and dealing damage. Seems like whenever I hit with him, opponents fly away in very satisfying ways. However, when their damage goes up, this becomes a problem as far as chaining moves together. His KO moves take careful timing and placement. You have to be able to predict where your opponent will be, instead of directly countering in an instant with powerful smash attacks.

Ness, I find, is much better for comboing. I feel more mobile with Ness's jumps. His aerial attacks have amazing recovery speed, so I always feel like I have one extra jump and one extra attack. I can attack incredibly quickly with aerial moves out of short hops, immediately attack again putting opponents on the defensive. His moves don't send opponents as far, so they're usually in easy range for the next attack. His KO moves seem much easier to get off. Things such as his yoyos and PK Fire create easy opening to land powerful KO moves, and in Brawl it's MUCH easier to grab opponents out of PK Fire.

I guess that's enough to get started. Anyone care to talk about specific moves?

[DJ Tempora]

Totally agreed.

Ness' PK Fire, for one, is much more combo-able. It's similar to how it was in Melee, in that your opponent will have to actively DI out of the flames, and it sets them up for bat or fair or another move. Lucas' PK Fire really surprised me, because it pretty much hits once and then does some respectable knockback with the pillar explosion. Totally threw me for a loop the first time I played him. It falls in line with what you said, though, about Lucas being geared toward keeping opponents away and dealing damage in single strikes.

[Ademisk]

Ness wins, 22 to 3. Lucas resigns himself to a life of hard alcohol and cheap women, and ends up dying from a simultaneous attack of Liver Disease and Herpes at the age of 17. Ness uses a Cup of Lifenoodles to revive him(plus a dose of PSI Healing Gamma for the Herpes and Liver disease) and forces him to work as his personal slave for the rest of eternity. Or until he pays off the Lifenoodles, but ****, those things are priceless.

[Aevin]

Poor Lucas ... *cries for him*

[Levitas]

Hold up, I want to know whether this is speculation, or if you've played brawl before I hear comments.

[Smashbros_7]

Please tell me if PK Flash can be used in 1 vs 1 battle effectively. It was good in 4 player match, and I saw a vid in which Sonic Punched Ness and the PK Flashed Killed Sonic while Ness went flying. Also is PK Freeze Better?

[DJ Tempora]

Please tell me if PK Flash can be used in 1 vs 1 battle effectively. It was good in 4 player match, and I saw a vid in which Sonic Punched Ness and the PK Flashed Killed Sonic while Ness went flying. Also is PK Freeze Better?
Better? Dunno. But PK Freeze has great speed and range, and a direct hit will freeze an opponent for a pretty long time. The knockback from what I've played is similar to a G&W #8 hammer (in other words, slight vertical knockback, no horizontal) but it will sometimes KO an opponent by preventing them from returning to the stage in time.

[Krell]

Personally, I played both characters, and though I only got in a few free for all rounds, I liked Ness better. I just like the way his aerials work better and his smashes feel more natural to me. However, I really liked Lucas for a few things, such as his long grab and his PK Fire. I don't think either is better, they just play differently.

[Aevin]

Hold up, I want to know whether this is speculation, or if you've played brawl before I hear comments.

I have played both characters extensively in my friends' imported copy of Brawl. I plan to main both Ness and Lucas equally. Right now, my Ness is a little bit stronger, I think, since I mained him in Melee, but I'm more than competent with both characters.

But I don't expect you to take my impressions as golden. I'm curious what others have to say.

[Levitas]

Thanks. I like to know where any information I hear comes from, and new input/ideas are always important. Also, awesome that you've gotten a chance to play!

[Aevin]

I wanna be playing now ... But apparently my friends and I "hawg" the system, so I don't wanna be rude and call.

People base their "Lucas is better" things on his recovery, I think. He can tether recovery with his rope snake (which I've never done), and his pk missile goes further. And the range on the grabs is awfully nice. On the other hand, it's rarely necessary to use the missile to recover at all with Ness. He's so floaty and his second jump is huge. It only becomes a problem when opponents are violently ledge guarding.

[ShadowXOR]

I played a ton of Ness and a bit of Lucas.

I pretty much preferred everything Ness did more than Lucas. Also note that I was a Smash 64 player (still) and skipped Melee...so I won't really reference any comparisons there.

PK Fire - Ness creates a nice pillar that keeps them stuck so I can give them a sharp crack with my bat or something else. I also like the downward angle when fired from the air. I'm an up close and personal fighter so it helps me break their defense and get inside.

PK Thunder - I prefer the one hit over Lucas multiple hits. If an enemy is coming towards me I can give them a quick PK Thunder and it disappears, giving me control over Ness immediately. Lucas goes through their character and you have to wait until it expires (there may be a way to cancel it, but I'm not sure). I also like how Ness just slams into them with his PK Thunder (with his body), though Lucas' multiple hits looks great as well.

PK Flash/Freeze - Freeze looks like it could have some great uses but I loved the power from Flash. It can kill very easily and does 37% (I think with a full charge). It's much smaller this time around but it's somewhat faster. It was great for opening Smash Balls (yes I know they won't be on in tournaments but that isn't the only way I play).

Psi Magnet - I believe Ness still covers his entire body with this and it just heals. I didn't get a chance to use Lucas but it didn't cover his back and I heard it did damage when you turned it off...not really sure what to think of this one yet.

General Moves - Ness just felt better overall to me with his general move set. I love Ness' down spike as opposed to Lucas' multiple down kicks...I don't think they spiked but I didn't do much with them. It seemed like he could move horizontally in the air with this so that could have some unique uses.

I'm not sure where the hate for Ness is coming from or why people find Lucas superior but I think they both have their uses and I by far prefer Ness as my character.

[Aevin]

Cool. I'm glad to see some people not ditching the poor kid for his blond ventura counterpart. Couple of things ...

It's much smaller this time around but it's somewhat faster.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it's smaller. The graphic is smaller, but in Melee the range wasn't nearly as huge as the explosion suggested. But I only hit with this a few times, so it's hard to tell. What I do know is that when it hits ... it looks AWESOME! The explosion happens, then disappears. The victim actually sits there for a second completely motionless, as if about to fall, and then when you least expect it ... BAM!! Rockets off the stage. I love it! XD

Also, contrary to the appearance, Lucas's PK Magnet DOES absorb from behind. He immediately turns around and absorbs when hit from that direction. I wonder what happens if he's hit from two directions simultaneously ... The out front thing actually indicates where the move will hit people--yes, Lucas's PK Magnet is an attack. It has similar knockback to his PK Fire, and hits people when you deactivate the move.

[ShadowXOR]

Well, like I said I didn't play Melee much so you could be right. ;)

As for Lucas' Psi Magnet...all I have to say is...strange. I wonder if the damaging portion will have any practical use.

[Smashbros_7]

What about PK flash. Can you get hit and activate effects?

[ShadowXOR]

What about PK flash. Can you get hit and activate effects?

What do you mean?

[Smashbros_7]

What about PK flash. Can you get hit and activate effects?

[Aevin]

What effects are you asking about? You mean status effects like in Earthbound? The move's very similar to how it was in Melee.

[Smashbros_7]

Like, When someone Like Mario Punches you, while doing PK Cross(thats what he says)

It will still activate Hurting Mario!

[ShadowXOR]

Like, When someone Like Mario Punches you, while doing PK Cross(thats what he says)

It will still activate Hurting Mario!

I'm pretty sure if you're hit it does not activate but I'd have to mess with it more.

[Aevin]

I wonder if someone can hit the victim out of it in that moment of stun ...

[Smashbros_7]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lBzxd3SG-A4

WATCH THE VID!

[Aevin]

Oooh. Pretty.

I love the conversation at the end. "PK Flash!" "F**"

See what I mean about the pause before the opponent goes flying? (In the PK Flash at the end)

On a side note, the up tilt is stronger. As in, it KOs. You could do that in Melee, of course, but they had to be at REALLY high percentages.

[Drik Khaail]

PK flash will probably still be useless, though it is faster now, and Ness seems to just be more fluent, where Lucas is more of a gtfo user, which may be useful for me :D those hexagons are just too **** creepy though. Ademisk has quite the point too.

also, with that video, ^, at the end, Ness's PK flash seemed to go out even though he was hit. that true, or am I seeing things?

[DJ Tempora]

PK flash will probably still be useless, though it is faster now
PK Flash, useless? In Melee? Haha sounds like someone didn't use one of Ness' best edgeguard options. :chuckle:

[ShadowXOR]

I thought PK Flash was pretty useful in Brawl...especially due to slower overall movement from all characters but an increased or similar speed for PK Flash. That instantly makes it much more useful.

[Levitas]

Drik, it's because of massive hitlag in brawl, think zelda's new lightning kick. The hits probably happened at the same time, just that the hitlag in the attack that got Ness was so much less.

Edit: PK flash will probably not increase in usefulness. Even if it does, it won't by a lot.

drik, I like your avatar...

[ShadowXOR]

Drik, it's because of massive hitlag in brawl, think zelda's new lightning kick. The hits probably happened at the same time, just that the hitlag in the attack that got Ness was so much less.

Edit: PK flash will probably not increase in usefulness. Even if it does, it won't by a lot.

drik, I like your avatar...

Like I said, from what I played (which was quite a bit), it seemed pretty good.

[PrettyGoodYear]

I'm so glad I'm maining both of them. Awesome!

[Levitas]

Shadow, I'll take your word for it, but I've only seen one connect. I've never seen one do anything in a one on one. I don't mean that PK flash is without use, I just don't see a role for pk flash in a one on one. Then again, what do I know about brawl? You're the one who's played it. So my opinion, based only on limited video evidence and word of mouth would naturally not be as productive nor as insightful to hear.

Anything else you've noticed? I haven't decided the first thing that I want to try when I get a chance.

[Aevin]

I hit with it multiple times today. More importantly, I SCARED opponents many times, causing them to die over the ledge trying to avoid it or leave themselves open. It's powerful, and when people see it, they go crazy. Some will rush right into it trying to stop you from finishing, others will overcompensate in avoiding it. Anyway ... it makes me happy. :)

The horizontal distance seems less than it is in Melee, but that could just be because I'm using PK Freeze so much.

[ShadowXOR]

Yeah, PK Freeze goes insanely far. Also, I need to test it but PK Flash seemed to do a decent amount of damage if you set it off right above you and nothing has more priority than that when an enemy is about to slam down on you (if you can plan slightly ahead).

[Kiki52]

Can someone tell us about Ness' recovery in general? Is it worse or better than Lucas?
Lucas has a tether recovery, but infortunately I heard that because of edge hogging, it totally destroys characters who rely on tether recovery like Capt Olimar, but Lucas less so because he can do a PK Lightning recovery.
Does Ness have a good recovery you say? Because it's harder to have Ness hit himself with his PK lightning, I hope they balanaced it by giving Ness like two jumps instead of one or something.

[ShadowXOR]

Ness' recovery seems similar to what he had in Smash 64, so no, nothing extra.

[Ademisk]

You mean except its a billion times faster?

[PrettyGoodYear]

You mean except its a billion times faster?

Is it? Smash 64 was GOD and I doubt any character can compare to him (Fox in Melee has nothing on 64 Ness) But Brawl Ness's recovery doesn't seem faster, but I haven't seen 64Ness's PKT2 recently...

[RedMage8BT]

Kirby and Pikachu were pretty godly in Smash 64... I'm pretty sure they were better than Ness.

[ShadowXOR]

I mean he jumps in the air, gets his double jump, then uses PK Thunder. Everyone goes much further this time around.

[Ademisk]

It doesn't really matter, because unless you're Isai, nobody in that game is god.

Also, yes, Ness's PK thunder is super ****ing fast in this game. Much faster than 64 or Melee.

[Smashbros_7]

Aevin go play Brawl... set it up so Ness use PK on anyone and right whenthe PK flashes is close enough to Ness and the opponent, Have the opponent (let's use Mario) attack Ness when he performs it. I want to know If that video I provided you was true.