Marth's New Counter: Usable in Tourney Play?

[Irae]

Frome the Dojo-

"Let’s continue. Marth’s counterattack delivers damage at 1.1 times the power of the attack he was hit with and will always do a minimum of 8% damage.

Ike’s counter doesn’t go up as quick, but does 1.2 times the damage with a minimum attack power of 10%.

Regardless of the damage dealt, counters will not knock back opponents any further than the attack deflected."


If that's true, then instead of a measly 7 damage an low knockback, we have a longer counter with decent damage and equivalent knockback. This could change the way Marth is played, presumably...


Who agrees?


I was a big fan of Roy and Marth Counter, so... :P

[Zevox]

Its certainly a fascinating change. With the new 8% minimum, its already better than it was in Melee, and the extra damage and knockback potential sure helps a lot. I could easily see using it against slower, strong attacks, such as Ike's fsmash or Lucas' up smash, and getting quite a potent effect out of it. Couldn't say if this will alter his tournament play since I'm not a tournament player, but I think I'll use it more often, certainly.

Zevox

[Rabid_Jigglypuff]

As much as I used the Counter in Melee (probably a bit too much), this makes me extremely tempted to not even care about spamming it, even with the lowering in pow....wait. Does the lowering in power effect the reflected damage? I mean, it IS reflected, so Marth's not actually attacking. It still probably effects it though....worth checking out, I suppose.

[Hydde]

This new counter is a blessing....... dealing a lot of damage in one blow a la roy is really fascinating.

Countering moves like the falcon´s knee or DDD´s forward smash will be so sweet.

[Irae]

This new counter is a blessing....... dealing a lot of damage in one blow a la roy is really fascinating.

Countering moves like the falcon´s knee or DDD´s forward smash will be so sweet.

And the hammer... lol.

It's like the best of both worlds. Roy-esque counter with Marth's counter length and his non lag... He's gonna be pwn in a bottle.

[OperationJonny]

Wait, what?

It won't send your foe any farther than their attack would send you? Doesn't that go against the whole percent system that the game's founded on?

Either way, countering a bowser f-smash or Ganondorf elbow would cause some distance...

-shrugs-

[Cisne]

with the new gravity u can fall off the edge while countering , asured ko and u can recover with ease

Of course it will be worth using it, it was at melee and it is in brawl.

[WR3K]

****, its going to be so cheap and annoying, its so stupid because you can spam it and whoever your fight is basically ruined in the mindgame aspect in the hands of a counter *****. sure you can punish him sometimes but an even better player will immediatly know when someone is trying to get you to counter and just straight up own you with marths other cheap forward smash

such a broken character

[Warlock*G]

****, its going to be so cheap and annoying, its so stupid because you can spam it and whoever your fight is basically ruined in the mindgame aspect in the hands of a counter *****. sure you can punish him sometimes but an even better player will immediatly know when someone is trying to get you to counter and just straight up own you with marths other cheap forward smash

such a broken character

Broken? THIS. IS. COUNTEEEEEEEEEEEER!

[CJayC]

****, its going to be so cheap and annoying, its so stupid because you can spam it and whoever your fight is basically ruined in the mindgame aspect in the hands of a counter *****. sure you can punish him sometimes but an even better player will immediatly know when someone is trying to get you to counter and just straight up own you with marths other cheap forward smash

such a broken character

That argument is garbage. Learn what broken is then use it in a sentence. Mmkay?

[Hydde]

****, its going to be so cheap and annoying, its so stupid because you can spam it and whoever your fight is basically ruined in the mindgame aspect in the hands of a counter *****. sure you can punish him sometimes but an even better player will immediatly know when someone is trying to get you to counter and just straight up own you with marths other cheap forward smash

such a broken character


not really.... as far as i know... the counter frames are less now... it seems is a little longer than roy´s but as shorter as the late marth.

The knockback it seems is a set knockback.... like the old counter... what varies is the damage.... so yeah i think we will not be killing with this.

I dont think is cheap because we all know that is highly risky to mistime a counter. Most of the time youll get heavy punishment from your enemies...


so still is not broken.

[Dark Sonic]

^^I believe the knock back was changed. It's no longer a set knockback, but instead knockback equivalent to the attack countered.

[superryan]

****, its going to be so cheap and annoying, its so stupid because you can spam it and whoever your fight is basically ruined in the mindgame aspect in the hands of a counter *****. sure you can punish him sometimes but an even better player will immediatly know when someone is trying to get you to counter and just straight up own you with marths other cheap forward smash

such a broken character

Try pressing Z.

[Omega_Star]

Counter has always been useful in tournament play. You just have to know how to use it properly and not spam it like an idiot.

[Hydde]

^^I believe the knock back was changed. It's no longer a set knockback, but instead knockback equivalent to the attack countered.

if it is that way, then woa... its really crazy-

[Cisne]

damage x1.1 and percentage based knockback

[marthownsxd]

In which direction is the knockback of Marth's counter because I haven't seen it in action. As I remember in Melee, Roy's counter sends an opponent in a fixed slightly downwards horizontal path. Is Marth's similar or even better?

[Mew2King]

marth is so broken

[AlphaDragoon2002]

None of you folks going "wow it does knockback based on the attack received" played Roy, I take it...

Marth (as well as Ike) has Roy's Counter with a longer window and weaker damage ratio. Which is awesome.

[Bug]

So here's a question. Marth at 100% counters a 0% C.Falcon Knee. Will C.Falcon fly as far as 100% damage Marth WOULD have gone, or will C.Falcon fly as far as he would if he just got hit with his move.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the knockback dependent on how far Marth would've been knocked back, or is it just the knockback that would be expected from the move countered only dependent on the damage of the character countered.

[Dagingabreadman]

So here's a question. Marth at 100% counters a 0% C.Falcon Knee. Will C.Falcon fly as far as 100% damage Marth WOULD have gone, or will C.Falcon fly as far as he would if he just got hit with his move.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the knockback dependent on how far Marth would've been knocked back, or is it just the knockback that would be expected from the move countered only dependent on the damage of the character countered.

as far as the 0% Cpt Falcon would have. Just like roy's in melee

[Irae]

Counter has always been useful in tournament play. You just have to know how to use it properly and not spam it like an idiot.

I tend to disagree.
If done at anything less than 75 percent, the knockback is so negligible that you are instantly punished by anyone that has any heft to them. Fox RAPES counter happy people, even if they get the counter off because of this.
It usually just spaces them perfectly, rather than helping...

[mugwhump]

As much as I used the Counter in Melee (probably a bit too much), this makes me extremely tempted to not even care about spamming it, even with the lowering in pow....wait. Does the lowering in power effect the reflected damage? I mean, it IS reflected, so Marth's not actually attacking. It still probably effects it though....worth checking out, I suppose.

I've tested this, Marth's counter decreases in power with each use, even if you're countering different attacks. :bee:

[shadydentist]

I tend to disagree.
If done at anything less than 75 percent, the knockback is so negligible that you are instantly punished by anyone that has any heft to them. Fox RAPES counter happy people, even if they get the counter off because of this.
It usually just spaces them perfectly, rather than helping...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FRpjc3wECM

[Superninjabreadman]

Only if Fox/Falco/Wolf(If he has it. I cant remember) get their Shine taken away, Ness and Lucas get their PSI Magnet taken away, Peach gets her Toad taken away, Lucario and Ike get their counters taken away, Pit gets his Mirror Sheild taken away.....

[Ran Iji]

The main issue with Melee's Counter in higher play from what I've witnessed [from whoring the video archives] is the fact that when used improperly, you're going to open yourself up to the various combos that are opened up from throws, which was the chief weakness of the Counter. You had to counter at the exact moment, or you were going to be punished, rather painfully. Rather than taking that chance, most players opted to go with the down+shield dodge, since not only did it avoid grabs, but it was a natural extension of normal shielding. Most players were fine with just avoiding an attack, rather than tipping the scales in a marginal fashion. Especially when a Down+Shield would lead to them getting a chance to start a true combo, rather than a single digit percentile hit which often did nothing but temporarily relieve pressure.

Now in Brawl, it appears that it won't just be a marginal 'change' in damage and positioning, and might become a corner stone for Marth play. The counter seems like it may be more of a solution, than a method of gaining breathing room, but due to the differences in attacks/damage/knockback, it won't be much of a combo starter.

[Count Alphez]

i mastered marths counter quite some time ago.

truly it is a life saving move