The De-Sync/AI Thread

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

Alright guys, a new day is dawning and we've already found some ways to split up the IC's. I figure the best way to centralize discussion is to have an official thread. This will help keep the budding sub-forum nice and tidy.

I will edit this post with information and try to give credit to the people who post the de-syncs first. If you heard about it from somebody else, then try to give them credit so we can have a little history here. Sound good?

Excellent. If you have questions about how to perform a de-sync, post here. If you find a new de-sync, post here or link to a place it's been mentioned. If you find a nuance to an old de-sync that I do not cover in this post, put that information here and I can update. If I happen to post a complete and utter falsehood, then we'll pretend it's true so I don't feel bad. Or you can post here and I'll eliminate it.

This also can be a place to post weird little tidbits about Nana's AI.

So let's get the avalanche rolling.

--------------------------------

The De-Syncs

1: Starting De-Sync. The IC's start de-sync'ed in this game like they did in Melee. Hold the command you want Nana to perform and she will be executing it as the match commences. You can then start alternating commands if you want to.

Credit: Chu Dat discovered this at Pound 3, and I learned about it by word-of-mouth. I have not seen it anywhere else on this forum yet. This was found on 02/02/2008.

2: Grab De-Sync. I have been able to perform time-honored grab-smashes in the little time I've played. The execution is similar to Melee; hit A to headbutt and then input a smash attack. You should still be able to charge the smashes. I don't know much about the kinds of grab commands and combos that will work, so we can have fun exploring this.

Also, after Nana releases her smash the two of you ought to remain de-synced and you can begin to alternate commands.

Credit: I found this out on my own, although I'm sure many other people did it independently as well--they are welcome to share. Its origin came from Melee though, and I have no idea who first discovered the grab-smash then. Smash history buffs are welcome to let me know who first found it. I personally found it in Brawl on 02/04/2008.

3: Dash-Dance de-syncing. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmjtD9E2gg) has a nice example of numerous de-syncs you can do out of the dash-dance in Brawl. There is also current discussion and investigation concerning whether he is using pivots to de-sync, dash dances, or both.

Credit: The link was posted by WAAASSSUUUPP, but he gives credit to OoNoiRoO. The video was posted by OoNoiRoO on 02/02/2008.

4: Trip De-sync. When either one of you trips from your dash animation, it will permit you to input commands for the other, allowing you to start de-syncing.

Credit: Found by me on 02/08/2008.

5: Injury De-sync. Anytime you and Nana are separated by an attack, you can de-sync as you return to her. If she is returning to you, input a command as she is approaches you and you will begin the de-sync. If she is stationary and you are returning to her, tech or perform a laggy command while you are out of her range, and then input a command for her, and the de-sync will commence.

Credit: Found by me on 02/08/2008.

So far that's all we have. Start hunting folks. Anything you can think of.

--------------------------------

AI and Other Tidbits.

Regardless of how useful they are, this will be the nexus for finding cute little facts about Nana's AI and the various ways they can be implemented, abused, exploited, or in some cases avoided. As above, I will post any tricks mentioned and give credit to the first poster

1: Twin Direction Ice-Blocks. If you input a standing blizzard and then hold B near the end of the animation, Nana will fire an Ice-block in the direction she blizzarded.

Credit: I found this out with no external source guiding me beyond my own magical brain. Date: 02/05/2008

2: Jumping Blizzard: As in Melee, Nana will blizzard while facing the same direction as Popo if you jump before inputting it. This should slightly increase the damage output of the blizzard.

Credit: Once again, my glorious noggin plucked this one from the aether on 02/05/2008.

3: Nana Recovers! She will allegedly use up+b or forward+b on her own to return to the level if you aren't nearby to . I have not seen her solo squall, but I have seen her perform a solo belay. Presumably this helps slightly. She will also shoot ice-blocks if she recovers from high enough above the stage.

Credit: Presumably found and noticed by many, but mentioned by Binx in this thread on 02/06/2008.

4: On The Backs Of The All The Little People... Nana is capable of and will sometimes attempt footstool jumping as part of her recovery. More observation and detail would be nice on this front.

Credit: Found by Kink-Link5 on 02/09/2008.

5: Help me, Nana. Nana will try to jump out to help you use your up+b and better make it back to the level. This assumes she's not being incapacitated by an opponent.

Credit: Mentioned in this thread by Lightning Ice on 02/10/2008. He linked to this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BbSI-GuQ_c) to demonstrate his point, citing 2:33 as evidence.

Keep 'em coming, folks.

[Elliot Gale]

I'd suggest trying the short hop-fastfall desync from melee to see if that still works. I personally liked that one.

Oh, and perhaps Shield Up+B?

One more came to mind. Try holding B when returning from the ledge and see what happens?

[Binx]

Could someone test if you can still desynch with shield stun (IE: Tipper) I think that would be more usefull in brawl than it was in melee since it seems like crouch canceling no longer exists.

I guess you can add the triple jump thing to nana for the AI as well as the fact that she will solo up b and solo squall to recover now when there aren't other ways. The tether belay is something to note as well.

[N1c2k3]

Can you still roll desynch? Rolling to blizzard was probaly how I got 30% of my grabs. I'd hate to see it gone.

And speaking of AI: Nana's a fukin beast! The world is done!

That is all...

[Elliot Gale]

Roll and Spot Dodge desyncs are gone, sadly.

[Speedsk8er]

Wobbles, do you have any vids up of your IC?

Desynchs I want you to try:
!. SHFFSH- recently became one of my fave ways to desynch in Melee. I'm sure with everyone so floaty though, it won't be a quick. Also, which of thier aerials, besides Bair is quick enough to auto-cancel? try doing that desynch out of those to see if anything happens.

2. Does inputting a movement command(dash, jump) after rolling/dodging desynch them like it used to? Now many people knew about that variant of the roll/dodge desynch.

3. Something tells me that doing the RAR(Reverse aerial Rush) will desynch you. Try it out, please.

4. OoS Belay

5. Tipper desynchs off aerials?

6. Guarded Desynch

6. Whiffed grab desynch



I'll post more when I think of them.

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

I don't own a copy, but a friend of mine does. I can't really go over to his place to play it, however, since I'm locked in the throes of influenza. It bites.

[GameFreak]

whoa whoa whoa. i hate to sound stupid, but ive been an huge ice climber user for years and ive never even heard of this.

i guess i just need to find tips online more.

but please, teach me, this is something ive always hoped for. Explain everything?

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

Explain everything?

There is a bunch of information in the Melee IC boards about it.

Short version: De-syncing happens when you exploit Nana's AI to input different commands for the two climbers.

There are tons of ways to do this in Melee. This thread is for all the discoveries of their de-sync'ing potential in Brawl, which undoubtedly is still being explored.

[Phlemingo]

Well, I guess the Ice Climbers jab chaingrab is still in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY9NF3S2b64 (0:11)

[Lightning Ice]

Well, I guess the Ice Climbers jab chaingrab is still in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY9NF3S2b64 (0:11)

Awesome, I was getting worried that chaingrabbing wouldn't be as practical but that combo looked sick.

[Speedsk8er]

Someone try Dthrow-Nanagrab chaingrab please. I just got that down in melee. XD


Also,Dthrow -> footstool reset?

[Kink-Link5]

I think it should be worth noting that Nana will footstool jump off enemies in impulse to reach up with Popo. Possible desynching technique?

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

I can now definitely confirm the existence of injury de-syncs :P Making their glorious return from Melee, anytime Nana is separated from you by an attack, she will be de-synced as she tries to make it back to your side. Putting in commands right as she's approaching you will allow you to start de-syncing once again. Confirmed 2/08/2008 :P

Also, and this one is great... Tripping De-syncs :/ Should be self-explanatory. When you dash and one of you falls over because the game dislikes you, then you are de-sync'ed for free.

[Lightning Ice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BbSI-GuQ_c
Wow, at about 2:33 Nana jumps out to help you recover. Isn't it usually the other way around?

[kackamee]

Nana actually wnt back to Brawl school!!

In melee I think she missed the "You must recover!" section.:laugh:

[Finch]

Nana now shoots iceblocks if she has the space while returning to the stage. She does it at 4:33 in that ICs vs snake video.

[Dynamism]

I love the new AI. Looks way better.

Even more odd in that video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BbSI-GuQ_c
At 504, it looks like a tech/jump/cancle thing similar to the Bowser Klaw Cancle thingy.

Anyone know what it is? Where's the physco that was playing at the time?!? haha
probably just a jump once landing. what ever. :p

[Smasher89]

Probably a NEW desynch ( used it against sandbag while waiting on wifi).
Whenever both Popo and Nana hits the opponent with a fair, while they land it´s possible to put in a move for one of the climbers, like jab and then start fairspamming with the other climber, but as they get desynched it´s your choice what to do. I should try to get a vid of it as soon as I get hold of a SD card.
My brother has got it in his camera, and he might not get back home in a couple of days, and I go to a preESA2 "tournament" tomorrow, so migt take some time. And only if it´s possible to read .ssbb files on the computer (which should work)

[Speedsk8er]

Well, you could desynch from any SHFFLed aerial in melee. It just depended on when you fast-fell, methinks. Still, every desynch we can get will help, since it's looking like our approach is garbage. D:

[Smasher89]

Actually, forward B's last hit sends the opponent upwards, which is possible to use for a combo, like forward b to uair (not that I would call it a good approach, but it´s better then befor offensively, worse for recovery as everyone should have seen by now though...

[Dynamism]

It's worse yeah, but it doesn't take as long for Popo to recover from spiining to grab the edge. + and - 's.
And Nana jumps out...if she's still around...yey. And SideB has almost no lag after so it can be followed up with smashes even.

[Kyu Puff]

I just tried a lot out today.

Up+B OOS Desynch - Out.

F-tilt Guard Desynch - Out.

Roll, Dodge, Taunt Desynch - Out.

Platform (Squall/Belay) Desynch - Out.

Landing Desynch - Seemed to be out.

Hitlag Desynch - Tippering wasn't possible, but desynching from hitlag still appears to be.

Solo Squall - Out.

Pivot - In.

Dash Dance Desynch - In.

Dash/Smash Desynch - In.


Dash Dance Desynch is the same as it was in Melee, but Pivot is a little different. Pivot+"A" attack still works the same, as does Pivot+Ice Block. However, the jump-cancelling didn't work, and the c-stick works a little different. If you use the C-stick, it still counts as hitting A, so Nana will still Dash Attack (although you can d-smash with it). If you try to u-smash, Nana will also u-smash and you can't desynch. This may be bypassable by configuring the controls, but I don't know.

The Dash/Smash Desynch is where you dash in the opposite direction and hit A afterwards. One Ice Climbers Dash Attacks, and the other charges an f-smash. I can't remember which did which, but in Melee, it was Popo and Nana, respectively.

A new one that I might've found: the Initial Dash Desynch. I definitely felt a trend, but couldn't get it to work consistently. Maybe it's random, maybe the timing is just really hard. Basically, you do the initial dash (like a fox trot), stop, and input something. I started to get the hang of it by dashing, pressing L, hitting B (Ice Shot), and releasing L before the dash ended. The result (sometimes, lol) was that Nana would pop her shield on and off, and Popo would Ice Block. The other thing I managed to do, but only a few times, was initial dash into Blizzard. Just dash, down+B, and one of the Ice Climbers would Blizzard (I thought it was Popo, but Nana would've followed if that was the case).

My theory is that after the initial dash, Popo becomes active before Nana, and you have a short period of time to input something for Popo. If this indeed works, it's like desynching out of a wavedash!

If you run, and stop so that you go into the sliding animation, you can cancel it with any "B" move. However, if you only do the initial dash, they don't slide, and it can't be cancelled, which is kind of weird.

An AI tidbit: If Popo gets grabbed, Nana starts attacking.


Other random things:

- Squall is still good for recovery, but Solo Popo can't get much height.

- Belay is amazing now, and ledge-drop Belay does weird things.

- Solo Belay gets more height now.

- Jab cancelling seems to either be out, or not as fast. :(

- D-air has interesting properties. You can perform it after a jump, barely leaving the ground.

- B-air is worse for killing, better for comboing.

- The infinite grab works, but the timing is hella hard.

- I managed to have Nana charge a smash in a grab, but for some reason couldn't get her to Blizzard.

[Som]

there is a edge grab de-sync, where you slip off the edge (or ledge cancel) and the frame of a single climber is still on the stage, it leaves one on the edge, and the other on stage.

When this happens with nana on the edge there is some real interesting A.I. I once saw infinity jumping (ledge hoping for invulnerability frames) and occasionally she footstools an incoming approach.

lately the Ai's driving me crazy, ie, I'm popo at the very top of the screen I forward b to get back, she's on the ledge decisdes to jump off and forward b under the stage ! facepalm, lolz preez nana grow a brain lol

[Finch]

lately the Ai's driving me crazy, ie, I'm popo at the very top of the screen I forward b to get back, she's on the ledge decisdes to jump off and forward b under the stage ! facepalm, lolz preez nana grow a brain lol

Wow. We traded a useless SoNa for one that is slightly helpful but occasionally kills herself. I'm not sure which is worse.

[Som]

yeah the new AI is a bit frustrating at times, even though its more complex and can definitely pull some sexy stunts off occasional (ie footstool ftw), it can be, frustrating. Since the Ai is allot more complex it might take us awhile before we get the ins and outs of it.

[Speedsk8er]

Good finds, Kyu. I should have looked for more when I played Brawl.

You CAN make nana blizzard in a grab. I don't think that it locks them in though. I may be wrong.

Blocks are interesting now. They get knocked back by EVERYTHING. I had a MArth Fsmash my blocks and it sent them back. WTF? XD

[edit] Nana seems to have some glitchy physics. Someone had knocked my nana off the stage. She was recovering below and I tried to blizzard the opponent to keep them away. Well, both climbers did a blizzard except Nana floated in one place. I was like "WTF?!" and guickly helped her recover. There have been several instances where nana just floated in mid-air when resynching. I dunno why it is or if it could be helpful though.


PS: It’s all about Nana.
Sakurai said so himself. ^_^

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

Hmm... well, I'll get to updating this massive chunk of info when... I feel like it ^_^. But it will be updated soon, I assure you.

[Som]

Okay guys I was messing around in training mode and I found a total of 12 new de-sync's
some of them are insanely hard and likely not to be very usefull. I'll put a star on easy ones and a + on the seemingly usefull ones.

(1) *+ do your forward b special in the air tap on the button to get elevation, right before you land you can buffer a desync

(2)* the" blond roll" I use to do this by accident all the time, when done right it looks exactly like popo is rolling one way and nana bless her lolz is rolling the wrong way. its done by pressing back and L at the same time.

(3) *popo back roll nana forward grab. Back and z at the same time let go of the control stick quickly to have her do a forward throw towards the direction your facing

(4) *popo back roll nana backwards grab. Same but hold the control stick for a longer duration to turn nana around.

(5)+ spot doge nana, backroll popo, press downback and L at the same time. You need strict timming to pull it off

(6) platform drop de-sncy- jump up on the platform and immediately press down (fast fall might help) the instant popo lands (before nana) the result is one ice climber will drop and the other will stay.

(7)* + this might be obvious but its still can be useful, but after a failed nana-polt attempt you get a free de-sync.

(8) press the direction pad exactly in between uptilt and forward tilt, and press the attack button at the exact moment and you get a de-sync where one climber forward tilts and the other uptilts

(9) same thing for down and forward tilt

(10) same for uptilt and jump at the exact moment will result in one climber up-tilting on the ground and the other jumping into the air timing is strict !

(11)* jump de-sync, hold down block and jump right when popo hits the ground (jump deysnc)

(12) blond roll when your standing on the edge and it will result in popo air dogging off the sage and nana rolling forward. (don;t know how useful this is lol)

[Speedsk8er]

I wonder if there's a way to desynch from the Buffer system? Someone try it out!

[Som]

buffer system? what do you mean specifically? I know one of the dysnc's I figured out forward b , needs moves to be buffered before landing in order to work properly

[Delphiki]

This should be stickied.

[Wobbles the Phoenix]

Probably not, actually... I really dislike the IC playing style in Brawl, and I'm not terribly interested in playing as them anymore. They just aren't that much fun to play as.

Sorry :(

[Speedsk8er]

fuuuuuuck. Everyone's leaving. :(

[Nasu]

fuuuuuuck. Everyone's leaving. :(

Why is that a porblem? Most of the people that I see ENJOY playing characters that aren't popular.

[PB&J]

im not leaving them ive been playing brawl everyday and love them ill post some vids after final round and ill tell u what i discovered..u just have to approach different and play them more defensive but there are some insane combos u can still do..wobbles i will keep u posted

[KazenoZ]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but you can Desynch out of a SideB if you input a command right between the time when Popo stops his spin to when Nana does, if done correctly Popo will take the command and you can give Nana her own.
A few things I managed to do out of this: Nana-Blizard, Popo-Spin and vice-versa, Popo- Utilt, Nana-Usmash, Double Dair-Popo from SH Nana from normal jump, and Nana-aerials(Mostly Fair Nair and Dair) and Popo-Fsmash.
Sorry if this is common knowledge as to the commands available afterwards, but I'm just giving some examples.

This one is rather difficult to pull off in a real match, but if you have the time, it alot easier if you jump out of the SideB, Nana has some more lag that way and the timing will be alot less strict, also, it helps alot if you turn sides during the SideB(As in, SideB and tilt it left and right until Popo's animation ends)

Hope this helps

[Kyu Puff]

Ledge/Belay desynch: Press down on the ledge, and immediately up+B. If done correctly, Popo Belay's, and Nana either uses her get-up or jump from the ledge. While Popo is in his Belay animation, you can do anything with Nana.

[pixcalcis]

nice job to the two previous posters on these new desynchs..ima going to try them out when i get home.

[pixcalcis]

just saw your post Som...thanks for the info....ive also noticed the 'blond roll' and was trying to replicate it. So you just hit shield and back on the joystick at the exact same time?

and i like the jump sound of the jump desynch im going to have to try that out as well.