Confirmed - Zelda's multi hits escapable. Again.

[RyokoYaksa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Baox5gZn-eE - Please note the moments occuring at 2:47 and 3:01. Two perfectly set up Fsmashes for a whopping 4 damage.

This was only the Fsmash being escaped, both on dead-on hits. That in itself is retarded, but it is only a matter of time before the Usmash, Nair, and Neutral B are escaped in the same manner by actual good players. These attacks all work very similarly to Fsmash.

YOU ****ING IDIOTS AT NINTENDO/HAL/SORA. GET ZELDA'S ATTACKS RIGHT. YOU MANAGED IT IN 1.0 MELEE. IT IS NOT HARD, OR IMBALANCED.

Without Fsmash and Usmash being reliable, Zelda loses many viable counter strategies and otherwise good KO moves. Zelda's back to being the kick spammer for KOs.

I swear, I'd rather have the Female Wireframe's/Blue Alloy's Fsmash than this garbage. Hers at least sends the enemy when you need it to on hit.

[Ztarfish]

Normally this would tick me off very very much (don't get me wrong, it does irk me quite a bit) but in hearing that Zelda is actually better than Sheik multiple times, and that she is actually playable overrides that I think.

Would it be nice if they actually got her killing smashes right? Yes, and they actually are kind of retarded for not doing that. But at least they realized Zelda's suckage in Melee and fixed it somewhat. Better than leaving Zelda EXACTLY the same, as we thought earlier

Now I'm gonna go watch the video.

[Twilight X]

Oh you gotta be kidding me, *sigh* well, atleast she got a few nice buffs here and there.

[yuthe]

man - this just pisses me off!

[Melphyr]

It was too good to be true...At least Din's fire looks hot!

[PwnyRide]

Look at it this way, at least newbies wont all swarm to Zelda now. That's sort of a good thing, isnt it? And Zelda DOES have the best outfit in the game...just trying to sort of balance out the mecha-fail that is Zelda's Smash attacks. Looks like we're back to square 1.

I call dins fire spam.

[Mediator]

God forbid if her Fsmash does anything but stun!
on some side notes
I pray to God i never have to fight the person playing zelda on wifi b/c i would pwn
2ndly i love how zelda's dress moves this time around.

[Drake3]

At some point I'll get over my shock at this. At least they fixed her other gaping flaws so we've got an almost complete character now.

And I hate the way her dress moves. Does it have to inflate after everytime she DI's out of something?

[Mediator]

At some point I'll get over my shock at this. At least they fixed her other gaping flaws so we've got an almost complete character now.

And I hate the way her dress moves. Does it have to inflate after every dodge?

um if a lady in a dress were to do a fast twirl or dance move would the dress get closer to her?

and its better then binding her legs like in melee.

[Crispy Fries]

Hopefully her Ftilt and Utilt have been improved enough so we won't have to use the F- and U-smashes much >_>

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

indeed... they can be escaped, though not as easily... and they are more powerful. even her down smash owns..

that having been said, I don't min much with her because my friends can team up camp or use ike... and ike has yet to do anything but excell at FFAs


BTW, I'm feeling zelda could be an EASY Dedede counter... I've never been able to connect with lightning kicks so easily


edit: well... let me rephrase that... you can only seem to escape her fsmash so far.... maybe even her nair

[Soluble Toast]

Gotta admit. This ticks me off. How the hell could they let this slip through the cracks, AGAIN? =/
Dear god, morons.

Then again, that player probably could have done better had they a better mastery of Din's Fire. Din's Fire really is your friend.

[RyokoYaksa]

I find it almost as amusing that those people in the video have the actual nerve to negative vote and argue against me.

"Dude, how is that ****ed up? You know how powerful her Fsmash is if it connected every single time? They made it that way to balance it. "

LOL. With move decay (which affects sending power greatly this time) and the fact that consistency is far more important than enemy-depedent success, I wonder where the minds of gamers are going these days.

[Soluble Toast]

"Dude, how is that ****ed up? You know how powerful her Fsmash is if it connected every single time? They made it that way to balance it. "

I don't get WHY he said that. Why would they cripple one of Zelda's greatest options to KO? . . The devs must've realised how hard lightning kick is to pull off. F-smash would've been great for times when you can't pull off a lightning kick, or it isn't safe to. Now we're probably going to have to get the opponent into the air first? wtf. Zelda is SUPPOSED to be the KO master of the duo, I don't see why they'd ruin one of Zelda's greatest chances to do what she was created to do. This is not balancing her AT ALL. It's like a spit in the face to Zelda mains.

[Illyasvel]

I can't believe you're already complaining. Not. able. to. believe. it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMdEZABB22k

^^^^ = MARTH , as in M_a_r_t_h vs Zelda, who, in Melee, would have not been able to take even 1 stock vs a very good player (maybe 1)

In that video, Zelda WINS, which could lead us to think "Maybe they improved Zelda?" (FYI, yes they did)
Making it easier to sweetspot does not mean it's not needed to sweetspot anymore. Diddy kong is a small character, aka harder, therefore she could miss 2 Fsmash. But just cause of that will you leave her behind and mark her as a horrible character ? Cause I hope not. If you don't like that her Fsmash can be DI'ed by the very very small characters, play Sheik. Not much more to say.

[Crescendolls]

aw...well...it looks like another challenge us Zelda users will have to defeat and prove victorious.

and no other character looked so good when turned evil.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

indeed... but onls small characters sem to be able to DI out of it

[RyokoYaksa]

I can't believe you're already complaining. Not. able. to. believe. it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMdEZABB22k

^^^^ = MARTH , as in M_a_r_t_h vs Zelda, who, in Melee, would have not been able to take even 1 stock vs a very good player (maybe 1)

In that video, Zelda WINS, which could lead us to think "Maybe they improved Zelda?" (FYI, yes they did)...
......
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/N9NE99/P8.jpg

In that video, the match cuts off at 3:50 and doesn't even finish. We don't know WHO won.

Making it easier to sweetspot does not mean it's not needed to sweetspot anymore. Diddy kong is a small character, aka harder, therefore she could miss 2 Fsmash. But just cause of that will you leave her behind and mark her as a horrible character ? Cause I hope not. If you don't like that her Fsmash can be DI'ed by the very very small characters, play Sheik. Not much more to say.
If you think I will leave Zelda behind, then die. I'm still a die-hard Zelda fan, and she my favorite character ever in the Smash Bros. series. But when trying to play her competitively, you get infuriated very easily when attacks like these are "traps" for those who think they are good attacks at first glance. It's a slap in the face to Zelda users, and a bigger slap in the face to those who try to play her in any kind of serious setting. Zelda was only good enough for gimmicks in Melee, but consistent Fsmashes and Usmashes gave Zelda that many more options.

And I don't think you're entirely observant of what this actually means. Smash DI still exists in this game. Even though Diddy and smaller characters can just normal DI to escape it, larger characters can Smash DI out. And trust me, good players will be able to that consistently, or all the time, with the hit lag these moves have. It's basically two moves that you can't use. So, Zelda had to suffer with an ultimately useless Fsmash/Usmash in Melee for 6 years. She will have to do the same with Brawl for another 6+ years. Note my anger. If you cannot appreciate it, then you have not seen what I have seen.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

then, should it make you happier if I were to tell you that it even hits behind zelda a little bit? becasue my fool of a friend tried to atack me from behind while I was attacking another with my fsmash... he got right up behind me, tried to attack, and got stuck in it... I guess the hitbox is huge now. meaning that you might get sucked back in after DIing out

[Metroid_01]

It's a slap in the face to Zelda users, and a bigger slap in the face to those who try to play her in any kind of serious setting. Zelda was only good enough for gimmicks in Melee, but consistent Fsmashes and Usmashes gave Zelda that many more options.


Better than people being able to DI out of your final smash that leaves you hopelessly vulnerable afterward, right? Of course, we may never have final smashes in competitive play so that is a moot point.

I can understand why you are annoyed (I am sure I would be too), but be happy that Zelda has been brought up as far as she has, even if people can DI out of the smash, it doesn't look like she can be abused out of it (fortunately) and Zelda does have several other kill moves to work with this time around, hell even her down smash can set up for some projectile spam.

Every character is going to have their drawbacks, but Zelda is still definitely a good character, and even if people *can* DI the smash, that doesn't mean they always will.

You should be happy you weren't playing one of the mid tier characters that got nerfed hardcore for no reason. I wish Samus felt as solid of a character as Zelda does. Id gladly take a meh f-smash for a character with as many options as Zelda now has.

[rampant_apart]

Better than people being able to DI out of your final smash that leaves you hopelessly vulnerable afterward, right? Of course, we may never have final smashes in competitive play so that is a moot point.

I can understand why you are annoyed (I am sure I would be too), but be happy that Zelda has been brought up as far as she has, even if people can DI out of the smash, it doesn't look like she can be abused out of it (fortunately) and Zelda does have several other kill moves to work with this time around, hell even her down smash can set up for some projectile spam.

Every character is going to have their drawbacks, but Zelda is still definitely a good character, and even if people *can* DI the smash, that doesn't mean they always will.

You should be happy you weren't playing one of the mid tier characters that got nerfed hardcore for no reason. I wish Samus felt as solid of a character as Zelda does. Id gladly take a meh f-smash for a character with as many options as Zelda now has.

Always look on the bright side of life? :\

[Metroid_01]

I do have the unique advantage of still thinking Zelda is a badass anyway, and I have played Zelda so I have a concrete idea of how she works so I do have a different perspective on the matter as well.

But, we cant do anything about it now, so its just wasted energy to stress over it. For me, I get more than enough stress from college and life, theres no way I am going to let a video game get to me as well.

[rageagainst]

yes its infuriating the devs overlooked how DI will play into the game, but just because people can DI out of her new Fsmash, its still loads better than what it was in melee, with the junk hitboxes and incredibly small sweetspot it had. Its definately harder to DI out of it than before.

o yes, her fsmash wasn't even one of her kill moves (unless on famitsu the "side a" translation actually means Fsmash A). Her kick kills at 67% her Uair 80% and "side A" at 100ish (i think can't remember), if side a means her tilt, thats amazing then, and if not we still have 2 great kill moves. Oh yeah if their stunned by ur Fsmash, its always a good way of setting up a kick (i heard that if you do dins fire right after a kick their knockbacks combine... if thats true thats awsomesauce)

And poster above is way too cynical about samus, her projectiles power has been nerfed but they move faster. Also her physical game is better. Shes different not nerfed. Same with ppl who say ganons been nerfed, sure they have some good points but his bmoves got buffed and we still don't know whether or not hes hiding a super move in there...

[RyokoYaksa]

Here you go, proof of Usmash escapability in less than 12 hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDOo7n3vvDI - @1:21 and 5:43 what what what escape?! On the bright side, there is Farore's Wind afterburn footage on 1:06 and 2:55 though, which I know everyone is dying to see.
Along with a reverse sweetspot kick at 2:02. NinjaLink's Zelda is the Zelda to watch for the time being. There are other videos on the YouTube.

Also, my frustration over this escapability BS runs quite deep. These attacks DID NOT suffer this problem in the very first release of Melee, and there was absolutely no reason to nerf these moves into oblivion when used in the competitive scene, where you need to have as many reliable options as possible. There is even less reason to keep them that way. Speaking as a competitive Smash player and future game designer, nerfing Zelda in the middle of a game's lifespan (Melee) was extremely unprofessional and unwarranted, even though it was a game mechanics change that indirectly nerfed Zelda. My 1.0 copy of Melee will always be an important artifact of my game collection.

[GameAngel64]

Yeah all of this is a bummer. But, trying to be optimistic here, especially since I don't know how many veteran Zelda players have gotten to play her in Brawl... Many of us were able to use Zelda pretty well, as bad as she was in Melee. So while she still has some of these same flaws, she has also received a lot of buffs, so can't we only do better this time around? I mean, I hope she is good enough where she won't be a niche character... where it won't be common fact that Zeldas can do well, but never win a real tournament. The game is so new, I'm sure it will be a long time before everything "balances out" and we can see what actually is. I'm sure for a while we will fluctuate between, "this is broken" "oh wait, there is a counter for this," and so on and so forth. In the end, we may yet find an aspect of the game that disrupts the equilibrium of the characters (i.e. in the way that L-Canceling and Wavedashing allowed some characters to move up the ranks above other characters they were beneath before). Only time will tell.

[Metroid_01]

And poster above is way too cynical about samus, her projectiles power has been nerfed but they move faster. Also her physical game is better. Shes different not nerfed. Same with ppl who say ganons been nerfed, sure they have some good points but his bmoves got buffed and we still don't know whether or not hes hiding a super move in there...

Maybe I am, but I did put the vast majority of my time playing Brawl into her, and Samus ended up the joke character in our group. Of all the characters I have played in brawl, Samus felt the most underpowered to me despite being the one I have put the most time into.

Anyway, back on topic. It is really unfortunate to see that Zelda's up smash also suffers this. Atleast we see that the Zelda player had plenty of other kill moves to work with in that match(even a nice down smash kill!)

[yuthe]

Thanks for the vid, RyokoYaksa! I suppose Farore's wind afterburn is somewhat a consolation prize. It has pretty decent knockback and gives your opponent a reason to block whenever Zelda throws out a teleport (that is, unless someone finds a way to counter it). Think of the mind games! Zelda now has better options for closing the gap and chasing down her opponents.

Despite Fsmash's escapability, it does seem to suck in your target from a distance moreso than it did in Melee, judging from the last few seconds of the NinjaLink vid. Or am I just seeing things?

[Zone]

hmmm... maybe sakurai hates Zelda. Smash DI'ing her multi hit attacks AGAIN :\ hopefully it's really hard this time around, but that's wishful thinking.

[RyokoYaksa]

I would like to add that I feel awful for Melee Zelda players who have never experienced the pleasure of said attacks working properly. It's like not knowing there was chicken in chicken noodle soup.

[GameAngel64]

Meh, even if you did own version 1.0 where her attacks worked better (which I did), whenever you went to tournaments there was a stark possibility that you would get stuck playing on one of the subsequent versions of the game. So this is like that, but with some buffs to make up for it, and maybe the new game physics/mechanics won't make these flaws such complete downfalls!

[Iris]

Escapable or not, moves like Nair and FSmash are much faster and bigger, so even if it has the same problems as in Melee, it seems clear that it's more difficult to DI out of in time. Not to mention the sourspots have more knockback and don't leave her as vulnerable. It's a shame, not a tragedy. It's not as if she hasn't gotten anything nice in return.

[Alias]

I think theres a way to lock your opponents in with that smash

like you shouldnt just smash watch & wait. Maybe you have to move the controller around to hold the multihit in until the final bash

wishful thinking

[Alias]

Escapable or not, moves like Nair and FSmash are much faster and bigger, so even if it has the same problems as in Melee, it seems clear that it's more difficult to DI out of in time. Not to mention the sourspots have more knockback and don't leave her as vulnerable. It's a shame, not a tragedy. It's not as if she hasn't gotten anything nice in return.

i was just thinking that and thankful about it


it seems you can do the smash without worrying about a serious afterattack

[-spAzn-]

NinjaLink's Zelda is awesome I watched most of the matches pretty nice.

Anyway I can't say i'm quite as mad but I do think it sucks that it's escapable, again. Like others said she did get some nice rewards and trade ins. If she was the exact same yeah then I would be pretty pissed. As right now she's looking pretty good I think compared to her Melee counter part. Man is it satisfying to see one of her smashs hit and a couple did. Either way I guess I won't get to worked up about. Though I can see why you're this upset Ryoko with you being a competitive player and all. I would probably be the same way maybe even more.

[RyokoYaksa]

Usmash is punishable on escape. Fsmash does not appear to be.

However, with the new mechanics on move decay and how they greatly affect the quality of your available KO moves, the consequences of Zelda's escapable attacks can still hit her hard, just not in the same way as in Melee where I've been Rested out of an Fsmash between its individual hits.

Brawl in general focuses on separating your damage building attacks from your KO attacks. Failure to do this results in the enemy regularly living to 150+ damage. You could somewhat counter this in a competitive setting by relegating Usmash and Fsmash as damage moves, but on escape, they hardly do any damage, either. So as time goes on and players get better at DI/Smash DI, these moves could be reduced to the purpose of reversing the decay on your other attacks.

[Drake3]

...They changed Melee halfway through its lifespan? So my newly bought copy is tainted and corrupt? Is that...even allowed? Oh Nintendo, some day I'll devour all of your souls.

Anyway, I hate the fact that her smashes are connected through multi-hits and the fact that they're escapable again, but you know we'll work around it. I'm just very glad that all of her other gaping flaws have been fixed (we finally have a working projectile and a recovery we can use). What are the chances of Nair being DI'd out of anyway? It's pretty fast and has a strange angle.

And I didn't want to post this in your thread, Ryoko, because everyone agrees with you and I'm afraid, but unless it's tested with multiple sources, you can't say that the sending distance has been decreased. And I'll clarify before you turn me to stone. The kick's properties have been changed with the tacked on freeze-frames, and the placement of the sweetspot. It was brought up before, but in that one video with NinjaLink and D1, Marth is sent in the complete opposite direction after being kicked.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah.. sorry.. her usmash is escapable too... if someone is only hit by the outer edge of it

[Alias]

I think there should be a theory about only fast characters or with significant agility moves can escape her smash

with this video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QbnV4bX4KLc&feature=related

the Lucus player is pretty good, but Zelda's smash got full hit every time. Same as with the VS Pit video....Zelda got Pit everytime

So maybe only Diddy along with very few others might only escape her smashes sometimes

[Ztarfish]

I find it almost as amusing that those people in the video have the actual nerve to negative vote and argue against me.

"Dude, how is that ****ed up? You know how powerful her Fsmash is if it connected every single time? They made it that way to balance it. "

Oh right, cause I totally forgot that no other characters smashes connect every time [/sarcasm]
What the hell? It's sure a good thing that Dedede's and Ike's smashes are easily DIable [/sarcasm... again]

[Mocha19]

I played quite a few matches with Zelda myself and I found that it's definitely escapeable on the edges of those attacks, but centered they're very hard to DI out of. Plus they're fast so they won't really think to do so every time and if they did, it would be too late.