Let's Talk

[kenny10]

OK. Since Ness is in Brawl, I might as well make the transition from Melee to Brawl also. People who have been to the Melee Ness boards should know that I created the Let's Talk thread there which turned out to be a lot more popular than I expected. So I decided to start helping the Ness Brawl community by sort of "transferring" that thread to these boards.

Let's take a look at my original post.
I'm a Ness player, you're a Ness player, let's talk about playing Ness.

I'd like to talk about maneuvering, stage selection, edge guarding, recovering, and combos as they relate to specific match ups, or just playing philosophy in general. I just want to try to learn some new stuff, as I'm sure everyone else does.

Try to keep the posts intelligent, I actually decided that questions are good, as long as they aren't vague or about how to perform technical things like DJCing or anything like that. If you have something of actual substance to talk about please post. However, if all you have to say is "play smart" just don't bother until you figure out how to go beyond just saying that.


I'm not sure where to start, but there's pretty much an endless amount of things to talk about so we might as well start somewhere.

This is also to give me something to do in anticipation of brawl.

I guess Ness vs. middle tier would be good to start.

EDIT: Sry Brookman, I had to.

Now some of this stuff doesn't apply anymore but the idea remains the same. The point is to discuss about Ness, ex. moveset, ideas, questions, etc. But please try to make intelligent posts and not like "ZOMG NESS IS IN!!!1!" This thread would be the alternative to creating new threads stating the same thing like is Ness better or worse or what to do now that his DJC is gone. Thx everyone.

[Levitas]

Lol, I guess the first topic on this thread should be what combos are enabled by the lack of a DJC? I'm thinking anything that pops them up performed after an immediate double jump (ie spike or uair) will lead into a bair, uair, another spike, nair, or whatever.

Additionally, I think a rising fair may set up into pk fire (DI dependant).

Also, edgeguarding as Ness should be much easier now.

What do you guys think. Also, ademisk, I'm counting on you to try this stuff out.

[DeuceBlade]

short hop, rising fair will probably be his basis for combos.. and dgrab

[Ademisk]

You're obsessed with this "Lets Talk' thread, aren't you?

[kenny10]

You're obsessed with this "Lets Talk' thread, aren't you?


Yes I am. You got a problem with that? :p

I have an idea. With Ness's DJC gone, that means his uthrow could actually be used an everyone else who isn't a fastfaller. (If there are still fastfallers in Brawl)

Ex. uthrow->rising uair->DJ to dair to spike them down-> and then come down with another dair as they get back up or tech chase if they tech.

[Masky]

Why is Ness's fair so appealing to people for starting a rising combo? Is is somehow more effective than how it could be used that way in Melee?

[RedMage8BT]

I'm not a Ness player, but I'm really glad he made it in, as my friend is godly with Ness. One of his alt. costumes includes a kickass black shirt, is there any story behind that?

[Levitas]

We don't know. It seems that nobody with brawl cares to upload themselves wrecking people with Ness, so until then, we won't really know.

[Ademisk]

The Black shirt is a Mr. Saturn Shirt ^_^.


Also, rising fair is good because it has hella priority, is easiest to space, and the knockback is perfect for comboing into.

[kenny10]

Yeah but a rising fair won't bring your opponent up to you as your going up unless your at the top of your jump already. But I never suggested a fair. Uair is a better combo starter to me now that DJC is gone.

[Ademisk]

It doesn't need to bring him up to you, theres still things you can out of an fair, can I get a PK Fire!?

[Scholar Zero]

How is his grab range this time around? I just don't want to have to be up in someone's business to throw them. So far I haven't seen many missed grabs in the videos, but maybe they're just good at grabbing.

[NESSBOUNDER]

Why is Ness's fair so appealing to people for starting a rising combo? Is is somehow more effective than how it could be used that way in Melee?

Yes. There's no DJC in Brawl.

This means that Ness can "rise" from his second jump while using his Fair.

And because of the loop of his second jump, the Fair makes a "Scooping" motion which is perfect for catching people and bringing them up for a combo. It also allows him to get out of harm's way if they block it.

[Arcade]

Nothing would make me happier than seeing the return of the Yo-yo glitch. I know the chances of that are zero, but hey.

Speaking of Yo-yos, any news on if they've been buffed?

[Levitas]

YES

watch the last two free for alls on the ness video thread, they're the two bottom-most.

Edit: and the last on the free for all, too.

[Arcade]

Holy crap that video thread updates fast, I could have sworn a bunch of those weren't there this morning.

Wow. It looks like most of his moves got far better. And it looks like PKT2 now has next to zero lag when landing on the ground. Just wow.

PK Flash killing Sonic at 54%? PKT2 having killing potential at 50%?

I'm going to keep watching those videos. Thanks very much for keeping up the thread.

[Levitas]

Lol, no problem. I update it as often as I can.

[kenny10]

Does PKT2 go any farther than usual and is it somewhat easier or harder to aim this time? (I'm too lazy to watch the videos)

[NessOnett]

Does PKT2 go any farther than usual and is it somewhat easier or harder to aim this time? (I'm too lazy to watch the videos)

it seems to have less range than it did before, and especially less in comparison to lucas'. I've seen some vids where it was aimed really well, and some where it was aimed very poorly, but overall it seems that the players have better control over it and should become second nature with practice.

[kenny10]

Hey guys. What's this I'm hearing about Ness's dair not spiking all the time. Is it a sweetspot or is there some weird property?

BTW, I saw the vids where Ness uses his yoyo. It actually looks like it could combo now. I can see it now. Usmash to bair off the stage.

[Phelix08]

I heard from someone that his f throw is stronger this time around than his b throw was in Melee. Any truth to this, from what you guys have seen? I've watched a few vids and havn't seen anyone use the f throw so far, and I'd do more research but my internet is just too slow to watch more than two or three movies a day...

By the way, I've never seen a d air that connects do anything other than shoot someone down.

Also by the way, Ya, the yoyo is way stronger than it was in melee, though that's not saying much. Still, it looks useful.

I just keep thinking of things...
Anyone know if Psi Magnet works like it did in SSB; it absorbs not only energy attacks, but all projectiles? I've been wondering this for a while.

[_Doorman_]

U've played Ness a few times, but never seriously. For some reason however, I really want to main him or Lucas. So, would someone like to school this noob on the proper way of dishing out punishment with "The Pk Kid?"

[Levitas]

Nobody that's really active on the Ness boards has access to brawl as of yet, so it's tough to know.

Phelix, I'd assume that pk magnet only absorbs energy projectiles again. It just seems to mke more sense that way.

[NESSBOUNDER]

I heard from someone that his f throw is stronger this time around than his b throw was in Melee. Any truth to this, from what you guys have seen? I've watched a few vids and havn't seen anyone use the f throw so far, and I'd do more research but my internet is just too slow to watch more than two or three movies a day...

By the way, I've never seen a d air that connects do anything other than shoot someone down.

Also by the way, Ya, the yoyo is way stronger than it was in melee, though that's not saying much. Still, it looks useful.

I just keep thinking of things...
Anyone know if Psi Magnet works like it did in SSB; it absorbs not only energy attacks, but all projectiles? I've been wondering this for a while.

This is false. I saw a vid where he used an Fthrow on Lucas at 180% and it hardly sent him anywhere. I've also seen vids where he almost KOed with his back throw.

And yeah, the yo-yos are REALLY good this time around. They're faster than they were in SSB64, but stronger than it was in Melee. And it does much better damage and knockback.

[Gea]

Ness for top tier! lol, I dunno about that but Ness is a beast. I will definitely be repping him more this time around.

[Ademisk]

His Fthrow does fixed knockback, it's not going to improve enough to KO someone at even fairly high %s. But the question is, how much more is the fixed knockback?

[N.OW]

I played today for about 3 hours. I played ness about half that time and didnt lose a match. Hes way better. Heres some impressions i gathered (remember i didnt play TOO long)

- dair always spikes, it was hard for me to land because i kept trying to djc into it but i did get it a few times.
- nair is really improved, easy to land
- fair was about the same
- bair was quick and i could combo 2-3 together at low damage. Knockback is only slightly nerfed if anything because characters simply last longer in this game.
- pkfire is better and it seemed harder for opponents to get out of it.
- pkthunder2 is amazing. Can use it a lot with low chance of getting punished, the lag is really low.
- Yoyos are better but i didnt use them too much (used to melee lol)
- utilt is good, seems better.
-bthrow is nerfed but still kills at around 150. I didnt try to fthrow at high percents (melee)
- pkflash is faster, psi absorbtion is really fast and can actually be used now( i didnt use it often though, i was still playing ness like melee ness)
- I tried to YYG, yoyo kept hitting twice. Im pretty sure it is out, but im not gonna give up hope until i have tried more ( i only attempted it like 5 times, and my opponent wasn't standing still or anything)

[NESSBOUNDER]

How much damage do the yo-yos do now? I know the knockback has improved a lot...

[Arcade]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3FN4Ymq228s

Up smash does 17 damage for two hits at :36 and 12 damage for one hit at :11.

[NESSBOUNDER]

Awesome!

Finally, the yo-yos will serve their purpose as defensive weapons!

[Arcade]

I don't recall seeing anyone land a down smash in any of the videos I watched. I guess everyone's used to not ever using it in Melee?

I'm curious to see how much damage it does, and what kind of trajectory it sends opponents on.

[NessOnett]

I don't recall seeing anyone land a down smash in any of the videos I watched. I guess everyone's used to not ever using it in Melee?

I'm curious to see how much damage it does, and what kind of trajectory it sends opponents on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai8T74ii7AY

a nice vid made showing his entire moveset(minus a few little things like uair). It should answer your questions about damage and trajectory.

[Arcade]

Ah, thanks for that.

[kenny10]

Looks like you can still combo with the dthrow, the utilt looks more useful, PK Flash looks fast, downB looks useable, usmash could probably combo, dash attack looks the same, fitting 6 bairs into 2 jumps are just ridiculous, fthrow looks stronger, uthrow still doesn't really do anything, any more things?

[Levitas]

The down throw may not be very useful, depending on how much stun it gives them. It's entirely possible that they'll just be able to jump away before Ness is even done with his throw animation, like Link's new Down throw. I'm liking the new double jump the best of all the improvements made.

And yeah, the upsmash looks like it could be used as a setup now, it's so much faster.

[Arcade]

His back throw has been nerfed and his forward throw does fixed knockback.

[Levitas]

Are we sure it's fixed? Knockback is determined by in an A+Bx form, where x is the damage, A is the constant representing initial knockback, and B is the constant representing the growth rate. Melee Ness's forward throw had a high A, and a low B, but the B was not zero. Yoshi's down tilt had a largish A and it's B was zero, so it was fixed.

What I'm trying to say is that it would be hard to determine whether it's fixed knockback without sufficient testing. So if you have proof of this claim, or have tested it yourself, or can cite someone who has tested it, please feel free to back it up.

[Arcade]

Well, I watched this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ai8T74ii7AY), and at 2:39 Ness grabs Falco from the very center of the stage at essentially zero percent and throws him just far enough so that Falco falls off the stage. Then, at 3:03, Ness beats Falco around for 35% before he throws him from the right side of the square/diamond decal thing on the stage. Falco lands on the very left side of the stage. It looks like Falco was thrown the same exact distance to me.

Anyway, that's what I inferred from that video.

[Levitas]

If I get the chance, I'll test it so we can know for sure. Anything else you guys want to know?

[Arcade]

Well, try to use his down smash a bit and see if it's comboable.

Other than that, have fun!