Ness's pk starstorm

[PK Starstorm]

In my opinion, I thought it was kinda lame for him to have the same fs as lucas, but i understand why his is blue. because of the way it strikes, I think it will be pretty easy to dodge unles your in the air. what do you think.

[Axel-of-the-Key]

I'm not sure.
I do think his looks like it'll be better because it has a wider range. That's just my opinion, it also might be weaker because of that, I don't know.

[pyroroth]

I saw a video of Ness/Lucas doing their Final smash.. and 1v1 it looks INCREDIBLY easy to dodge.. so easy it was pathetic.

[scormac]

I saw a video of Ness/Lucas doing their Final smash.. and 1v1 it looks INCREDIBLY easy to dodge.. so easy it was pathetic.
yes but ness/lucas will be able to fight while starstorm is bussy

[Levitas]

Not true. Check out the vid in the Ness video thread that says 2 pk starstorms next to it, and you will see that they are in fact immobilized.

[Ademisk]

Well, they can move during like the last...4 comets.

[DeuceBlade]

Imagine if you will... a Free for all battle... on a stage like battle field... The entire arena will be flooded with the comets and if any one attempts to recover they will most likely be knocked back due to the angles and size of Ness' comets.

Or it could be a dud.

[Ademisk]

Psh, Free For Alls don't count.

[DeuceBlade]

Well since the comets spawn in random parts whose to say a row of 3 couldn't form.. but it would require luck I guess.

[Ademisk]

I don't know why they thought PK Starstorm would be a good idea. Summoning a rain of Mr. Saturns would've been a better Final Smash. Also, why the hell do clones have to have the same effing Final Smash? Whatever, all the more reason I refuse to play with Final Smashes.

[AsbestosBlatant]

Starstorm is called down relative to Lucas' or Ness' position on the stage.
Ergo...
Jump off the side of the stage, into the magnifier, use StarStorm, cover the entire stage with a nicely saturated PSI bombing.

[C Spyker]

Why does Ness have the SAME FS?
Seriously I thought that all the characters in Brawl would have unique moves!
Completely different!

[saratos]

Who even cares about FS's? After a month, no-one who wants a fair fight will use them.

[Destructioncalls]

Ness' final smash is better for bigger stages cuz it spreads out more plus his fs does 20 damage wit each star. Lucas' stars take off 14. Also i've seen several vids with ness' FS being Hugely effective. Oh another thing is that u can't count that one vid when the guys were standing perfectly still showing final smashes. I mean when people are in the heat of battle anything can happen.

[Levitas]

Destructioncalls, that's an interesting thought. "in the heat of battle, anything can happen". However, it sounds a lot like an excuse the way you're using it. Planning is what makes things work.

Some characters final smashes are really powerful, some suck. In the melee tier list, it would be incorrect to say that the tiers are only that way because x low tier character is underutilized or underdeveloped in the very same way that it would be incorrect to say that Ness's final smash is more powerful than it really is. It seems that if the meteors hit by some miracle, they will have the knockback or a smash, and the percent of one as well. On top of that, he can't aim where he's gonna send meteors, further limiting it's potential.

If used in a free-for-all, I guess it'd be decent, but there's just no way that it'll be useful in any level of competitive one v one play. Kinda dissappointing.

[DJ Tempora]

If used in a free-for-all, I guess it'd be decent, but there's just no way that it'll be useful in any level of competitive one v one play. Kinda dissappointing.
Well hold up, let's think about this for a second.

In competitive one-on-ones, items are going to be turned off about 99.9% of the time. When's the only time most people will use items? Friendly, casual free-for-alls. So in the former case, it's irrelevant anyway, and in the latter case, that's when Ness' FS will be at its most effective. It doesn't seem as bad when you think about it in those terms. :)

[Migrainemaker]

Thats true. Its much more effective in free for alls. In tourney/competitive play they most likely will be turned off, but they can be avoided so we'll wait and see

[Levitas]

Nobody's established a lack of final smashes in competitive play yet. For the first couple of years in Melee competitive play, tournaments in the East Coast generally had items on. It needs to be established for Brawl before people start assuming things.

Additionally, there's the "pity final smash" when someone's so far behnd, so yeah...

[DeuceBlade]

Nobody's established a lack of final smashes in competitive play yet. For the first couple of years in Melee competitive play, tournaments in the East Coast generally had items on. It needs to be established for Brawl before people start assuming things.

Additionally, there's the "pity final smash" when someone's so far behnd, so yeah...

I think the pity final smash is influenced by whether they are turned on or not... and I think final smashes will be turned off during tournies because when they are playing for cash they will cry if they lost money because someone used a final smash for a "cheap" win.

Majority of the people who say that will most likely use cheap characters //marth//

[DJ Tempora]

Nobody's established a lack of final smashes in competitive play yet. For the first couple of years in Melee competitive play, tournaments in the East Coast generally had items on. It needs to be established for Brawl before people start assuming things..
You're right. I had considered that, and to an extent it's true. Stuff will get reevaluated for Brawl and we don't know for sure about the use of items in competitive play.

Still, the Melee / Brawl analogy isn't perfect in this case. Remember that SSB didn't have a big competitive scene, so coming into Melee, new tourney rules had to be figured out. Now it's different. The SSBM competitive scene has been well established for years, and there's already a precedent of "no items". It's not a stretch to assume that SSBB will continue the no item play, including Final Smashes. It's not for sure, yeah, but I'd put good money on it.

[Levitas]

Ok, I'll agree with that reasoning. I just find it important not to make assumptions without thinking things through first.

[Meta_Sonic64]

In my opinion, I thought it was kinda lame for him to have the same fs as lucas, but i understand why his is blue. because of the way it strikes, I think it will be pretty easy to dodge unles your in the air. what do you think.

I think it's useless. I've seen it in action in a vid and only one of the comets actually had a chance of hitting his opponent. The way his Starstorm travels is such a disadvantage when you compare it to Lucas's

[DJ Tempora]

It's not at all "useless." Watching videos does not equal actual playtime, no offense.

I used Ness' FS eight times yesterday in FFA against competitive Melee players, and it hit seven of those times (sometimes dealing KOs as well). The one time it didn't hit was when I only had one opponent left, and he was able to successfully dodge. Everyone's right, if there's only one other player, it's not that hard to avoid. In FFA it's pretty good.

Compare Ness' FS to other Final Smashes, and it seems alot better. Lucario's FS never hit me, not once (as Ness, just stay to the side of the stage and airstall with PSI Magnet and PKT2 until it's over... his FS has really bad horizontal range). For PT, the two Links, Zelda, and Sheik, just stay above or below your opponent and it's impossible to get hit. Meta Knight's and Ike's Final Smashes can be avoided by staying out of grab range. Just play an evade game until they use the FS on another player, or in 1v1, until you get a opening to knock it away from them. The ICs' Final Smash, from what I've seen, has limited usage - especially on medium or large stages. Just jump vertically and away from the peak.

Many FSes can be avoided by simply having an awareness of who has the Smash Ball, and then exploiting the weak area of that player's FS. I think Ness' FS is better than these in most circumstances, because there is no specific "avoid" strategy. It passes through floors and covers the stage horizontally most of the time, so the other players just have to *hope* that they don't get knocked into one of the Starstorm comets.

That said, I'm not saying Ness' FS is anywhere near the best. Samus' and Pit's are pretty decent and get in hits most of the time. Kirby's has pretty good range and often results in at least one KO. Sonic, Diddy, Pikachu, and Yoshi (and to a lesser extent Wario and ROB) have excellent Final Smashes in the hands of a skilled player. But above all, Olimar's Final Smash absolutely owns. Every time I saw it used (about five times or so), it KOed all three other players. The initial phase racks up damage, and then the rocket comes down. Olimar's rocket explodes on the ground with ridiculously massive range and knockback. On a small to medium stage, I feel like it's the best FS that I've seen.

[EDIT]
There is an additional advantage to Ness' Final Smash that I didn't mention. When Ness gets the Smash Ball, you can use the FS immediately without any strategic drawback. Many other players have to wait for the right time or angle or whatnot. Essentially, this means that you'll never have someone steal the Smash Ball from you, unlike other characters. It doesn't sound like a big deal maybe, but it's very helpful.

[Aevin]

*seconds everything Tempora said*

Both Ness and Lucas's are quite useful. On smaller stages, being hit by a single comet tends to bounce opponents into the others. I've seen opponents get comboed right off the top of the stage with that.

I disagree about there not being strategic timing to Ness's final smash, though. In fact, I think timing it strategically gets around the fanning out problem. Knocking your opponents far off the stage and then using it, or using it when you're away from the stage yourself (and yes, you CAN recover afterwards) can be really effective.

I think Ness's move is more useful for team battles. It gives your team mate a place to stay safe in the "eye of the storm," while he helps to make sure your opponents remain in the line of fire.

[DJ Tempora]

I disagree about there not being strategic timing to Ness's final smash, though. In fact, I think timing it strategically gets around the fanning out problem. Knocking your opponents far off the stage and then using it, or using it when you're away from the stage yourself (and yes, you CAN recover afterwards) can be really effective.
Good point, that's very true.

I still see it as an advantage though. I guess what I meant is... with Ness, if you're under pressure of having the Smash Ball stolen, you can use the FS without much penalty. It'll still work pretty well, regardless of where you use it. Many other characters have to wait for a specific opening to use theirs. So yes, while there are ways to increase the FS's effectiveness, Ness is much less vulnerable to having his stolen. Agree? :)

[Aevin]

Indeed I do.

[AdmantNESS]

I have seen a Smash ball broken by PK Thunder. This means Ness or Lucas can easily get to it(Though you have to maneuver it so Ness's doesn't get eaten.)

[DJ Tempora]

I have seen a Smash ball broken by PK Thunder.
Actually, it's even better than that. Playing as Ness, I used PKT to break a Smash Ball, and I immediately gained possession of it. I wasn't anywhere near it. That gives Ness / Lucas players a nice little advantage.

It wasn't clear from your post if that's what you were describing, but I figured it's worth restating either way.

[Plasmaexe]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned that Ness should have gotten PSI Rockin for his FS >_< (you know the exclusive PSI attack that Ness has in Earthbound that you could name). Oh well =/=

[EToaster]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned that Ness should have gotten PSI Rockin for his FS >_< (you know the exclusive PSI attack that Ness has in Earthbound that you could name). Oh well =/=

Well, Lucas doesn't know Starstorm either, so it's not really a better fit for him either. =P

[Aevin]

PK Flash seems to instantly break open smash balls ...

My only problem with the PK Thunder technique is that I usually end up hitting it just enough to weaken it, so my opponent (who's actually chasing it instead of aiming from afar) gets in the last hit.

[PK Starstorm]

I played it at my friend's house, and it is very effective. hits really hard. I did some research and found out why they have the same fs. If you notice, ness's is blue. That's because in his game, poo's starstorm was blue and also twisted as it fell, hence giving his a wide area. In mother 3, Kumatora's starstorm just gathered and fell on everything. explains lucas's. also, hers was yellow.