Clone or Not? Let's Discuss!

[Rhubarbo]

So, it seems like Sakurai took the lazy approach and added clones again...Let's see if Toon Link is a clone as well.

[finalark]

Well, has anyone who has actually played the game posted a move list yet?

[SuperLink9]

If he's a clone, I'm not maining him.

Sakurai is so lazy. If Ganondorf is a clone then Brawl is Melee 1.5.

Of course if Ganondorf makes it to newness, that'll make me a bit happier I guess.

[IllidR]

Well Windwaker Link, or Toon Link as Sakurai calls it, wasn't one of my first picks; however, he isn't a terrible character. I'll be able to bear him IF he is not a clone, if Sakurai was that lazy, may his house burn with a thousand fires of my flame.

[E-Jolteon]

If he's a clone, I'm not maining him.

I am.

I really doubt he'll be a clone, as relatively easy as his specials would be to work with. Even with the bow, we still don't have certainty in the status of his character.

I went out of my way to avoid rhyming.

[Soluble Toast]

http://i28.tinypic.com/33dehj4.jpg

Skull Hammer In Toon Link's hand? :O

[AdmantNESS]

Got a vid:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FeeIYr5wW78

[Zevox]

Got a vid:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FeeIYr5wW78
And that confirms that. Bow, spin attack, bombs, boomerang, standard attacks - hes a clone.

****. I've been opposed to Toon Link from the start, but I figured at least if he got in he'd have unique abilities. This is the worst news about Brawl yet for me.

Zevox

[tux_do]

I'm pretty sure he's not a clone, watch the ganondorf vs toon link video. And how can you say Sakurai is lazy? Look at how much he has done already. We won't all die if he makes a couple characters somewhat similar.

[Mike87]

He's clonified.
****, think the release date pressure got to Sakurai?

[Brawler Lime]

boomerang is different. tp links is gale boomerang, ww links is normal.
spin attack is different. ww link can charge his and also has different sword movements.
bombs, i dunno.
his style is also very different, as in play style, it seems he can jump higher and further, and can run faster.

so, YES, he is sort of a clone, but no more than luigi is marios clone

[Zevox]

You guys are grasping at straws. All of the clones in Melee had minor physics differences with their attacks - Young Link's spin attack did multiple hits rather than launching foes, his fsmash had scant knockback on the first swing and most of its force on the second, Falco had his dair spike rather than a comboing dair like Fox, Ganondorf's neutral A was quicker and more powerful than Captain Falcon's, Roy's counter did 1.5x the damage of the attack it countered rather than a set amount, etc - and thats precisely what we see with Toon Link. Yup, his boomerang isn't the gale one, but its still a boomerang. His spin attack doesn't seem different at all (we've known Link could charge his in Brawl for probably close to half a year now, so I'm not sure how you thought that). All of his standard attacks we've seen have the same animation, even if they cause different damage amounts or have different knockback stats. And he has a bow and bombs for his other specials, the same as Link. Thats not a Luigified clone - thats a pure clone.

Luigi was different in that several of his standard attacks were completely different from Mario's (his dash attack, for instance, rather than being a sliding kick, is a series of punches) and he had one special move completely unique to him (Green Missile) - Toon Link displays no such traits in that video.

Zevox

[Outlander]

Atleast Toon link isnt as bad as young link from Melee, they looked the exact same. and since Toon link is obvious a light fast character it gives people who say link is to slow a nice change.

[littlewolf]

At first i resented toon link being a link user but watching his video he looks pretty good a clone but as far as clones go he is good i will give him a try

[maian]

I STILL don't know why everybody hates clones so much. Ugh. I like to think of it this way: We have a set of moves, and they all have pretty good potential. But how will you use them? Will you sacrifice their power, and go light and fast, or sacrifice your speed and use them for more powerful hits?

I've never minded clones, but nonetheless, YL, in my opinion, is one of the best clones you could ever have. He's actually useful. There were redundant clones, yes. Pichu was faster and lighter, much like YL, but had, in my opinion, too many flaws, and just seemed like a weak character. I hardly notice the difference in Dr. Mario and Mario today, and Roy is a slightly more powerful version of Marth.

But then, there's YL. Sure, you could say he's simply a faster, lighter version of Link. At the core he is, but it changes everything. Young Link is a combo stringing master, a projectile monster, and if used right, a pest. Link, due to size, weight, and everything, is quite the contrary, and any master will play them completely differently.

Now, he is a clone, but I see in TL many things I don't see in other characters. He's got fast, effective attacks with impressive knockback. He jumps well, recovers well, and has a number of projectiles at his disposal. And...he's quick. I don't know, there's something about Toon Link that just draws me to him. There's something about him that...flows like other characters haven't. In my opinion, he looks quite broken, but this is a Young Link vet speaking. He's like my previous favorite character, but...better.

So yes. He could've have a unique moveset, sure. But honestly, I think putting in two different versions of a character with the same moves and different style is better than putting in two different versions of the same character with different moves. It would just be odd.

[RegalBuster]

All the clones are luigified...hell Ganondorf has falcons standard side and down b move.

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

God forbid they give Toon Link WW (PH, 4S, MC) moves, ya know. Not like they gave TP Link any TP moves.......

/end cynical sarcasm

[Tyrannotaur]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't "toon" Link use the Windwaker in that video where he fights Ganondorf?

[Soluble Toast]

All the clones are luigified...hell Ganondorf has falcons standard side and down b move.

When was this confirmed?
I thought the only B move we knew of was ^B which was completely new?

[Rhubarbo]

I don't hate clones, but since a character with SO much potential got the clone axe I am deeply sadened. I wish Brawl would get delayed to stop this misery!

[HiIH]

Though I main Link I second Doc Mario, and I have to tell you from someone who plays with the doc alot....

Mario is ALOT different than Doctor Mario. Those minor changes become major when trying to ramp up your play. Caping on a ledge is suddenly alot harder because Docs is taller, while Marios is longer. The Pills are MUCH better than the fire ball, Marios Fair isn't near as strong as Docs, especially with meteor cancels. Mario suddenly becomes Roy after playing with the doc with his lack of killing moves.

Clones are different enough in high end play they are essentially different characters. Shut up.

[Mike87]

any news on his FS?

[Meta_Sonic64]

He's just Young Link in cartoony form to me.

[SteveTV]

Though I main Link I second Doc Mario, and I have to tell you from someone who plays with the doc alot....

Mario is ALOT different than Doctor Mario. Those minor changes become major when trying to ramp up your play. Caping on a ledge is suddenly alot harder because Docs is taller, while Marios is longer. The Pills are MUCH better than the fire ball, Marios Fair isn't near as strong as Docs, especially with meteor cancels. Mario suddenly becomes Roy after playing with the doc with his lack of killing moves.

Clones are different enough in high end play they are essentially different characters. Shut up.

I feel the same way. If you're not playing the characters to there full potential it's hard to see how important the little changes to clones are. I use Y. link and Doc a lot, and I'd rather see Mario leave than Doc (of course that couldn't happen).

It would be cool to see toon link with the hammer, or the deku leaf, or any of the other items that he could have, but seeing as how I main Y. Link I don't think I could be happier with what I see of him so far.

[SteveTV]

Though I main Link I second Doc Mario, and I have to tell you from someone who plays with the doc alot....

Mario is ALOT different than Doctor Mario. Those minor changes become major when trying to ramp up your play. Caping on a ledge is suddenly alot harder because Docs is taller, while Marios is longer. The Pills are MUCH better than the fire ball, Marios Fair isn't near as strong as Docs, especially with meteor cancels. Mario suddenly becomes Roy after playing with the doc with his lack of killing moves.

Clones are different enough in high end play they are essentially different characters. Shut up.

I feel the same way. If you're not playing the characters to their full potential it's hard to see how important the little changes to clones are. I use Y. link and Doc a lot, and I'd rather see Mario leave than Doc (of course that couldn't happen).

It would be cool to see toon link with the hammer, or the deku leaf, or any of the other items that he could have, but seeing as how I main Y. Link I don't think I could be happier with what I see of him so far.

[KernelColonel]

Here's what I think happened:

Sakurai wanted to make the game as cloneless as possible. He gave Falco brand new arials and smash attacks as well as a new reflector. He gave Ganondorf cooler animations to his specials that make him function differently than before (we wouldn't be able to guess he's copied from CF if he weren't in Melee). He kicked out Roy, Pichu, and Dr Mario.

So in the decloning process, Sakurai was probably strapped for time. He gave Toon Link some weaker attacks that make him look like Link in a basic form (animation included). He also upped his speed. Essentialy, Toon Link is SSB64 Link with chargeable up-B and cel shading. While you think he was cloned 2-the-max, I just think that he's the least changed clone. Because he's still been changed, drastically, just not to the degree of Falco or Ganondorf.

[mach1na]

It is a clone.

[True Fool]

Well, he had enough time just to make a clone. I prefer having Toon Link over nothing. And while I would've rather had Mewtwo as a Lucario clone(well, vise-versa really) or Roy/Eliwood as a Marth clone, I'm glad he didn't pick Dr.Mario, or Pichu.

Since the only thing I really preferred about Link to Young Link was the fast-falling and Up-B, it looks I'll have a much better time as Toon Link. From what I've seen, he can fall much faster than Young Link, and Link's Up-B sucks now anyway.

[Gerudo Warrior]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140032

clone is a very loose word now.

[Gotann]

I'm really glad WW Link got in and all, but it really seems like they put him in without much care... like I mean, come on,

-Same Final Smash as Link.
-Compare to ALL other characters, he seems cloned, instead of luigified.
-No Role in SSE (Apparently)

From what I've seen so far, he's pretty much a Link with a different design. And that really upsets me, because he's the only one that has this problem... I know I haven't seen enough of him to start ranting like that, but it doesn't look good so far. Really, the only thing that make me feel different right now, is that if he charges his UpB to the max he does his "Crazy Hurricane Slash", but it really seems unlikely.

Even though, I'll main him, because he looks awesome. But it really saddens me that every character that has a similar gameplay to another, are different enough to call them their own character, but WW Link isn't.... Oh well, it's better than nothing, I guess...

[gamer8]

He's a clone, bomb boomerang, sword, bow, yep, a clone.

BUT.... his moves are a bit different than Link's, I think his boomerang moves differently, his bomb attack explodes differently and looks different (explodes in different colors) I don't know about the bow and up B though.

[W.Jr]

i have to say clone.

[Brav3r]

Even though i hoped that sakurai would aviod doing this He's a clone

The clone thing doesn't bother me that much a because becuase WWlink reminds me more of
a young link replacement the same way TP link is to Adult link. The good thing for me is that
both links have a difference in their what kind of attributes with thier attacks otherwise he would
be even more clone-ish.

i'm still gonna main him because i liked playing LoZWW and using young link in melee.

[RegalBuster]

Toon Link's FS is Triforce Slash.

[RicanThunder]

yea i see what you mean. some of his attacks are faster though. like his aerial down smash is a heck of alot faster than the tp version of link

[Octillus]

Of the alleged "clones" he is indeed the most clonelike.

[Gotann]

Things I noiticed that seems different from TP Link:

-DSmash: It seems to suck you then throws backward (Not really sure how to explain this)
-USmash: It just gives One hit instead of Three
-FSmash: Seems slower (I think)

-Boomerang: It just hits the opponent, instead of bringing him to you.
-Up-B: Multiple hits

-DAir: Comes down faster, and is very good for a Meteor Smash.

-Dash-A: Seems different, I think.

[Rhubarbo]

Here's a moveset of Toon Link that only includes special moves. Why did I only post the specials (oh, I have the A moves as well). Beause it would have been O-KAY if he had the same A moves as Link. Here it is:

^Special Deku Leaf: While grounded, blows opponent forwards. While ariborne, it lifts Link up and allows him to glide horizontally a bit.

> Special Fire Beam: Link swipes his sword and shoots out a fire beam from his sword.

Neutral Special Wind Waker: Link points the Wind Waker and a gust of wind blows the opponent.

v Special Skull Hammer: Link bangs the ground and sends out small shockwaves.

FS Hurrican Spin: Link rapidly spinds around the stage damaging all foes hit.

Other Potential Moves:

Tingle Tuner: Control and icon of Tingle, and Tingle will drop a Tingle bomb there.

Phantom Hourglass: Use it and Link spawns a safety zone where no projectile can hurt him.

Bombchu: Link lays a bomb on the ground and can control it around the stage.

Other Final Smashes:

Phantom Hourglass (As FS): Link takes out the Phantom Hourglass and stops time. He can now freely damage all foes on the stage.

Phantoms: Link disappears in a poof of magic. In his place come three phantoms which the player can maneuver by drawing paths for them. They are slow and being hit by them causes an instant KO.

Four Sword: Link pulls out the Four Sword and splits into 4 different clones of himself (they are all colored the same as the Link color you choses for obvious reasons). They automatically pummel all enemies on the stage.

Ballad of Gales; Link conducts the Ballad of Gales and causes a storm to brew in front of him.


The main reason I think Toon Link was a clone because he probably wasn't initially intended to be in the game. This is also evident because he does not have a role in the SSE. However, I think they should have at least given him some differences besides speed ups in moves. For example:

1) Bomb arrows
2) Hurricane Spin (you can move while using the Spin Attack)
3)Magic Boomerang (you get a lot of control when using the Boomerang)

[NeoSoul]

ugh.... someone care to explain why he WOULDNT be a clone.... when theyre the SAME FCUKING CHARACTER!!!

[Rhubarbo]

ugh.... someone care to explain why he WOULDNT be a clone.... when theyre the SAME FCUKING CHARACTER!!!

Maybe because they are not the same person at all, differ greatly in weapons they use (besides the ones that were used for the cloning), and have different peronalities? I think you either didn't play Wind Waker or Phantom Hourglass, or are one of the people who do not critique errors in the game (even though they are in denial at the fact that they are disappointed). Or, you could just hate the character and are being a d1ck.