Why are mindgames viewed as more important than technical skill?

[DaGarbageMang]

Summary for the wall of text impaired: tech skill is more important than mindgames because you must be nearer to the average tech skill of a pro than the average mind game level

So I've been getting flamed a lot recently on the gamefaqs (inb4 lulz gamefaqs is for n00bs) board when I lay out my argument for why I think tech skill is more important than mindgames. I don't visit smash boards often and I haven't been in topics where all this has been gone over. I accept I'm probably wrong because pros probably have a better idea about all this than me. I also understand that both things compliment each other and are no good by their own.


Mind Games: One of the most misunderstood terms within the community. Mind games are first were used to describe a single trick used against an opponent, but have since come to describe how a player thinks during an entire match. The only real difference between the top level players in the country are their mind games, in other words, the level at which they think and predict their opponents. Mind games are essentially a synonym for the less used term metagaming.

It seems to me that this means a mindgame is literally every decision you make to control your character in a way that leads to you winning the match. These decisions are based on a myriad of information you have including knowledge of the game mechanics, character mechanics, opponents tendencies, etc. Every button press and joystick movement or lack thereof you decided your character should do must be a mindgame, so long as it was done in order to help yourself win. You do not always decide to do what's going to help you win; this occurs when you cannot decide quickly enough what to do because of the speed at which the game plays. So is it right that mindgames = all your decisions to control your character to help you win? This isn't the main question I'm asking in the topic, but it's giving reasoning to how I see that mindgame 'level' of a player can be accurately measured.

I am assuming that skill in smash is measured completely by technical skill + mindgames. If the main difference between top level players are their mind games, then that means the technical skill level of these players is basically the same. Technical skill level is fairly easy to see when you watch vids of pros, and it is does seem clear that pros have a very small variation among one another in their tech skill level.

Mindgame 'level' may seem harder or even impossible to truly measure, considering the practically limitless amount of things your character can perform that you can decide will help you win. But if you accept that for the most part pros have practically the same tech skill level, then the ones who win must have the better mindgames. If every single pro had literally the exact same tech skill level, then the rankings determine in perfect order how good their mindgames are. But since tech skill level isn't literally exactly the same for all pros, there can be matches where the person with truly slightly better mindgames will lose to their opponent who had better enough tech skill level to overcome and win. This is why rankings cannot determine mindgame level entirely.

Many good casual players have tech skill level as good as pros generally do, but yet pros are likely to stomp those casual players because their mindgames are so much better. The very top pros are so good at mindgames they can consistently beat the other pros and consistently win tournaments. Someone with mindgames as good as a top pro will not be competive with the lower level pros if their tech skill in not on that same high level. But someone with that high tech skill level only needs a mindgame level of that of lower level pros to be competitive. So I'm thinking mindgame level variance among pros > tech skill level among pros. If this is true, tech skill must be more important since you must be closer in average pro tech skill level than in average pro mindgame level. THE END

PS: It is surely easier to attain that high level of tech skill than it is to attain the high level of mindgames. This could be reasoning for mindgames to be considered more important, but I haven't thought enough about this make a decision on it.

in before wall of text and tl;dr

I would totally abandon this idea and agree mindgames>tech skill if that can be explained to me. I am aware there are many things I may not be considering or that I'm just incorrect in any of my assumptions. I'm just genuinely confused as to why mindgames are thought to be more important.

[AlphaZealot]

Technical skil is only important to a point because it essentially unlocks more options for the user, which in turn allows more variation and a higher level of thinking.

The reason you often see people say things like "mindgames > tech skill" is because it is possible to defeat opponent who are obviously more tech savvy by simply thinking. I'll use myself as an example. In tournaments, frequently in pool play, I'll run into Fox's who can Short Hop double laser and waveshine almost as good as some of the best foxes out there. Yet I'll 2, 3, even 4 stock them because you know what? All this Fox's do is run straight at me, short hop, and then try and drill shine me. Meanwhile I've seen this a million times and all I do is wavedash backwards and downsmash them to oblivion. Eventually they may land a drill shine or two but the reality is the attack is basically pointless because they succeed rarely and almost always get more damage than they give. Its for this reason that people often point and laugh at the players who have obviously spent hours upon hours practicing against CPU opponents, never having learned the more essential aspects of the game, which is simply thinking.

The reality is people should probably not be comparing the two as if they were seperate aspects because tech skill and mindgames (thinking) are merely vices of each other. Your tech skill are your peices in chess. The more peices you have, the better you will be able to combat your opponents peices. The peices are your outward expression of your thought process. You need the pieces to represent what you are thinking. When you are missing peices, sometimes you can think enough to make up for it, but usually any lack in material equates to a massive disadvantage as long as the opponent is thinking at near your same level but with much more material.

Mindgames are more important simply because there is a technical skill peak and not a mental one. Eventually your tech ability levels out, its only what you can do with this ability that matters (IE how you think).

[mikeHAZE]

because a smarter player will almost always beat a more technical player.

if a fox SHFFL's a nair stupidly into a peach, and the peach crouch cancels, then the fox is punished.

if the fox doesn't correct it his error (aka play stupid with no approach or mindgames) then the fox will get raped.


edit:lol nice post alphazelot.


you know what they say, you can't spell HAZE without alpHAZElot.

[_Xanatos_]

Though technical skill is important for being able to play quickly and combo your opponents, you will become easier to predict if your mind games are not up to standard. Even though you can pull off these fancy attacks and combos, your opponent figures out how to avoid them, so your technical skill becomes less useful because of your lack of mental skill.

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

Mindgames is a manipulation of your opponent. If you can predict moves, catch patterns, and find when they are most vaunerable and where their weaknesses lie, you have already won the match.

[Lefticle]

AlhpaZealot hits the nail on the head. Technical skill can only open doors to more options for mindgaming. Seriously, tech skill does not make you a better player. You can have the best hands in the game and know all the techniques,, but if you don't know when to use those skills, and you don't know what to predict in your opponent, you're asterisk'd.

[falco999]

let's say a tech skill enhanced fox is playing against a mindgame enhanced marth. the marth would be able to predict the fox's movement and punish him for it

Mindgames at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlJtwaR8ZWY&NR=1

[S2]

Think about technical skills and techniques as tools.

Wavedashing is a good example.

On its own, wavedashing is not that useful. It requires quite a bit of technical skill for a move that simply moves you forward or backward (but without lag). If you use it stupidly, it leaves you more open than if you were just standing still.

Why is wavedashing good then?

Because when applied to good mindgames, it opens up a lot of doors.
False approaches, WDing backwards into an attack, edgehogging, combos, etc.

WDing is a tool. So is any technical skill.

When you get to a high enough play level, both you and your opponents are going to be able to do a lot technically. Sure everyone makes a few mistakes every now and then (technical mistakes), but for the most part at high level play its not the issue.

So what's left at high level? Mindgames. You can't learn mindgames by finger memory. Being able to figure out your opponents playstyle, patterns, and how to trick them will win matches for you. Its the reason why top players consistently win. You don't know how many times I've seen someone get beaten up the first few stocks, only to dominate the rest of the set because they figured their opponents one or two little tricks out.


I'll vouch for good mindgames at lower level play too. At the very first tournament I went to (4 years ago), I got matched against a Falcon player who L-canceled everything. Clearly he was leaps and bounds above me technically (I could not L-cancel at all). You know what? I beat him. Because I played defensive and punished him for every mistake. He was better technically, but he played stupidly.

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

let's say a tech skill enhanced fox is playing against a mindgame enhanced marth. the marth would be able to predict the fox's movement and punish him for it

Mindgames at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlJtwaR8ZWY&NR=1

lol I've seen that vid. Here are some other ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UbQ-gpOMB0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9AksD8XbSk

Now I understand this isn't a direct mindgame video, but look at 2:14.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3gitYccuY
The Fox player needs to recover. He could go to the edge, or go to the stage. The Falco player is edge hogging, making the obvious choice to go for the stage. But, the Fox player goes to the edge at 2:15, because he knew that the Falco player would jump at his return. He preceeds with a Dair and a shine, making this a perfect example of a mindgame. Manipulating an opponent.

[greenblob]

My motto for Smash 64 used to be "Even Isai can't get out of the most basic Captain Falcon combo." Even though this isn't as true in Melee, the argument still holds--for the most part, if you have your opponent locked in a combo, it's smooth sailing from there. But of course, you need a combination of mindgames and technical skill to land that first hit.

Isai's infamous saying "Don't get hit" summarizes everything pretty well. It's important to not get hit because tech skill will lock you in a combo. To not get hit, you need mindgames and some tech skill. Theoretically, you could win without knowing how to combo and get single hits while dodging every one of your opponent's hits, but that's not as effective, nor will it work very well.

[CaptainCrunch]

Technical skil is only important to a point because it essentially unlocks more options for the user, which in turn allows more variation and a higher level of thinking.

The reason you often see people say things like "mindgames > tech skill" is because it is possible to defeat opponent who are obviously more tech savvy by simply thinking. I'll use myself as an example. In tournaments, frequently in pool play, I'll run into Fox's who can Short Hop double laser and waveshine almost as good as some of the best foxes out there. Yet I'll 2, 3, even 4 stock them because you know what? All this Fox's do is run straight at me, short hop, and then try and drill shine me. Meanwhile I've seen this a million times and all I do is wavedash backwards and downsmash them to oblivion. Eventually they may land a drill shine or two but the reality is the attack is basically pointless because they succeed rarely and almost always get more damage than they give. Its for this reason that people often point and laugh at the players who have obviously spent hours upon hours practicing against CPU opponents, never having learned the more essential aspects of the game, which is simply thinking.

The reality is people should probably not be comparing the two as if they were seperate aspects because tech skill and mindgames (thinking) are merely vices of each other. Your tech skill are your peices in chess. The more peices you have, the better you will be able to combat your opponents peices. The peices are your outward expression of your thought process. You need the pieces to represent what you are thinking. When you are missing peices, sometimes you can think enough to make up for it, but usually any lack in material equates to a massive disadvantage as long as the opponent is thinking at near your same level but with much more material.

Mindgames are more important simply because there is a technical skill peak and not a mental one. Eventually your tech ability levels out, its only what you can do with this ability that matters (IE how you think).

That was an extremely good example. Relating smash to chess was smart. I think I'm going to save that definition for later because it's one of the best I've heard. Well said Alpha.

[Banks]

even if u are a smart player, if u don't lcancel or tech u will get destroyed so yea tech skill is more important than "mindgames" in that respect, however u don't need to quadshine people into a wall for 20 minutes to win a match either. balance

[HugS]

I could have sworn that Banks was black....

[-Darc-]

He's from Maine >_>

[Sliq]

Technical skil is only important to a point because it essentially unlocks more options for the user, which in turn allows more variation and a higher level of thinking.

The reason you often see people say things like "mindgames > tech skill" is because it is possible to defeat opponent who are obviously more tech savvy by simply thinking. I'll use myself as an example. In tournaments, frequently in pool play, I'll run into Fox's who can Short Hop double laser and waveshine almost as good as some of the best foxes out there. Yet I'll 2, 3, even 4 stock them because you know what? All this Fox's do is run straight at me, short hop, and then try and drill shine me. Meanwhile I've seen this a million times and all I do is wavedash backwards and downsmash them to oblivion. Eventually they may land a drill shine or two but the reality is the attack is basically pointless because they succeed rarely and almost always get more damage than they give. Its for this reason that people often point and laugh at the players who have obviously spent hours upon hours practicing against CPU opponents, never having learned the more essential aspects of the game, which is simply thinking.

The reality is people should probably not be comparing the two as if they were seperate aspects because tech skill and mindgames (thinking) are merely vices of each other. Your tech skill are your peices in chess. The more peices you have, the better you will be able to combat your opponents peices. The peices are your outward expression of your thought process. You need the pieces to represent what you are thinking. When you are missing peices, sometimes you can think enough to make up for it, but usually any lack in material equates to a massive disadvantage as long as the opponent is thinking at near your same level but with much more material.

Mindgames are more important simply because there is a technical skill peak and not a mental one. Eventually your tech ability levels out, its only what you can do with this ability that matters (IE how you think).

This topic should have ended here.

[RevN]

Mind Games Can Make a difference in a Match rather than Technical Skill. Technical Skill is always Charging at your opponent without thinking while Mind Games Confuse Your opponent and opens new ways to attack or combo your enemy

[ph00tbag]

I could have sworn that Banks was black....
That's mindgames, son.

[Banks]

I could have sworn that Banks was black....

which is why i have my sig

i can't help my love of teh raps

oh yea on topic tech skill and brains are both required to be good at smash.

[theONEjanitor]

excessive tech skill is unecessary, but some measure of tech skill IS WAY IMPORTANT or else you won't win games.

People get by on tech skill all of the time. they'll never been as good as the best in the world, but they do well enough.

The most important thing in smash is "playing smart". I dont know if thats what you mean by 'mindgames', but thats not what mindgames are. Mindgames are supplementary, if you don't have tech skill and if you don't play smart and know the game, they won't help you whatsoever.

[Tmx]

Second double post of the day. Go me. T_T

[Tmx]

Technical skil is only important to a point because it essentially unlocks more options for the user, which in turn allows more variation and a higher level of thinking.

The reason you often see people say things like "mindgames > tech skill" is because it is possible to defeat opponent who are obviously more tech savvy by simply thinking. I'll use myself as an example. In tournaments, frequently in pool play, I'll run into Fox's who can Short Hop double laser and waveshine almost as good as some of the best foxes out there. Yet I'll 2, 3, even 4 stock them because you know what? All this Fox's do is run straight at me, short hop, and then try and drill shine me. Meanwhile I've seen this a million times and all I do is wavedash backwards and downsmash them to oblivion. Eventually they may land a drill shine or two but the reality is the attack is basically pointless because they succeed rarely and almost always get more damage than they give. Its for this reason that people often point and laugh at the players who have obviously spent hours upon hours practicing against CPU opponents, never having learned the more essential aspects of the game, which is simply thinking.

The reality is people should probably not be comparing the two as if they were seperate aspects because tech skill and mindgames (thinking) are merely vices of each other. Your tech skill are your peices in chess. The more peices you have, the better you will be able to combat your opponents peices. The peices are your outward expression of your thought process. You need the pieces to represent what you are thinking. When you are missing peices, sometimes you can think enough to make up for it, but usually any lack in material equates to a massive disadvantage as long as the opponent is thinking at near your same level but with much more material.

Mindgames are more important simply because there is a technical skill peak and not a mental one. Eventually your tech ability levels out, its only what you can do with this ability that matters (IE how you think).

This here, is why Zeal is a Mod.

I could have sworn that Banks was black....

He's from Maine >_>

LOL

[BIG-T]

You need both. You cant be pro without having both. But anyways someone who is super technical with no mindgames will always get pwnd by a smart player with mindgames. Im not that technical but I play very smart (with sheik XD) and I beat people who are way more advanced in tech skills.

[Cereal Rabbit]

I could had sworn I got raped by a less technical Fox. I had no mindgames.

You can even lose to a little kid if you had no mindgames....

[4 Aces]

A good balance of both is necessary to play well. Tech skill is important because it allows you to do comboes and such, but mindgames and playing smart allows you to actually hit your opponent and avoid attacks. For example if you've ever watched Naruto, Naruto learns the Rasengan, which could be considered equivalent to tech skill in smash. He applies it rather poorly (at least when he first learned it, idk, didn't see all of them). He'll just do it randomly and expect to hit with it, but instead he misses every time.

In the same respect, he doesn't have great mindgames or tech skill, so in battle he will just make like 9000 shadow clones and then have them all charge in at the same time without any plan. One last example would be how Naruto knows only like 2 jutsu's, which can be compared to tech skill. So yeah, a good balance is necessary.

[Puffer]

Summary for the wall of text impaired: tech skill is more important than mindgames because you must be nearer to the average tech skill of a pro than the average mind game level.

As was said before, the example that AlphaZealot pulled out was sheer brilliance - that pretty much sums it up right there.

As for your saying that you have to be nearer to your opponent's tech skill than to their mind game skill, that, I'm afraid, is wrong. I'll give you an extreme example to illustrate the point:

Let's say you have a player that has flawless tech skill. They understand EVERYTHING about the mechanics of the game: move priority, cooldown, interruptible frames, character speed, weight, hitbox size, etc. etc. etc., AND are capable of "practicing their knowledge", so to speak, meaning they can work all of these things into their game. In addition, they know of all the advanced techniques and are capable of using them as well. However, this person is very poor at predicting their opponent, and while they can practice their techniques well, they're incapable of varying their play to keep themselves unpredictable, in turn.
Their opponent is the exact opposite. This player knows NONE of the advanced techniques and doesn't really understand the nuances behind the mechanics of the game. HOWEVER, they are incredibly good at predicting their opponent - they can synthesize information quickly and in a few minutes, can tell which move/technique their opponent is about to use, because their opponent has a hard time varying their play. Using only smash attacks, tilts, and basic aerials, this player can THRASH the "advanced" player simply by "tricking them out", frustrating them with varying attacks, and predicting their advances.

Thus, in general, knowing mindgames will land you further than knowing techniques. Of course, most players have SOME ability to mindgame, and thus you can't really whip the tar out of a good player simply by relying on mindgames - you DO have to know the mechanics of the game as well. And yes, a "pro" player in the Smash world is defined as someone who excels at both mechanics AND mindgames and is able to integrate them both smoothly.

On a personal note, I used mindgames as a beginning player to snatch wins from people who knew more about the mechanics of the game than I did. I didn't know how to tech, how to wavedash, how to DI, and I would neglect things like ledge-hopping and dodging. Yet, I could still beat opponents who knew way more about the game than I did, simply by being able to "predict" them and capitalize on their more obvious patterns and strategies.

One of the more common threads I've seen on these boards is "help I'm being beaten by newbs - why?" The people that make these threads assume that they're "better" than these "newbs" because they know more about the mechanics/techniques of the game. Sadly, this is not true - even if you KNOW more about the game, that doesn't make you better. Because knowing isn't only about techniques...it's also about mindgames. Of course, it's not ALL about mindgames, but they do constitute an important part in a player's skill level. Thus, when you hear someone say, "I lost, but I'm actually a better player because I know advanced techniques," ignore them. This is probably one of the more common johns that can be re-interpreted as "I lost to this player, even though I know more about the game, because they were able to predict my moves and beat back my attacks using what little they did know about the game." Essentially, it only makes the "advanced" player look more pathetic because their "lesser" opponent's mindgames were able to override their "advanced" style of play. Who's the better player? Of course, it's the person who earns the win, which in this case is the player who actually knows less about the game, but more about the mindgames behind it.

[Phen]

i'm pretty disappointed that the first post in this topic wasn't "tech skill is useless if you wavedash right into my FALCON PAWNCH"

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

i'm pretty disappointed that the first post in this topic wasn't "tech skill is useless if you wavedash right into my FALCON PAWNCH"

lol:laugh:

[GreenKirby]

Because a tech savy AI is still limited AI.

[kobefox2485]

basically, with good mindgames, you dont need too much skills, but to be good at mindgames you need good techniques, but the mindgames will make a player seem more experienced

[?!?]

LOL no one in this thread know what mindgames are LOL!! only pros know but its alll good I know ya cant help it. nobody knows that mindgames and tech skills are one in the same all sorts of moves/technical move in smash is consider an option you have to be smart to be able to use them at the right situations meaning all attacks in the game is considered a mindgame for the weakker mind in this thread who cant understand. being smart in this game means you are able to use all these options at the right situations like predicting jumps edgegaurding(choosing the right move to edgegaurd depending on your opponents recovery) but its all good in order to understand this game is to get good or learn tactics step by step. so basically anything that seeemingly looks technical doesnt mean that the player is a technical players it juts means thats their choice of move in some situations its juts an options. people who play slow and play simple like azen doesnt make him a mindgame player it just mean he chooses to play simple and use simple moves cuz its more comfortable for him to play like that cuz thats his style.

(THIS IS FOR ALL NOOBS) in the end the winner of a match the smarter player always win STUPID ****S. IN OTHER WORDS SHIZ IS NOT A STUPID technical player he's just smarter that the majority of the smash community. he uses all the right moves at the right time and reads the **** out of you. that includes anytop player that is considered a "technical skills player only"

[Eggm]

Lambchops is pretty much right lol, i'll just say this. I prefer to use technical mindgames. :)

[Buzz]

I think of it this way:
technical skill = knowledge
mind games = intelligence

Both depend on each other. Learning technical skill is like reading books. You stockpile knowledge for future use. Mind games are the direct applications of that knowledge (hence intelligence). Without mind games, technical skill is worthless. Without technical skill, mind games are dry and predictable.

In my experience, the reason people say "mind games > technical ability" is that generally when a mind game player comes up against technical player, the mind gamer player tends to win more often. Obviously, this is only my observation. Some of you may have seen the reverse. I just reflect on a 2v2 match I was in long ago. Our opponents were two flawlessly wavedashing Fox players... but they would use their awesome skills in the most random/worthless places and at the worst times to where it was an easy victory. I can honestly say they were far more technical than me... but they lost by a large margin. :P

[?!?]

this guys his stuffs about tech skills. you may know alot of options but if you cant use them at the right time your not considered anything but a sh*tty smash player who think they lose cuz they mess up on their tech skills *cough cough HIROSHI COUGH!*

oh I edited my first posta little bit if any of ya wanna read it go ahead

[AltF4Warrior]

If smash were all about tech skill, Silent Wolf would 4-stock everyone in the world simultaneously.

[?!?]

yea for real but anyways if any noobs want to be good at this game watch this vid it shows you hpw to use your brain and use mindgames in smash http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/25907

[Drephen]

am i proof that mindgames>tech skill?

i still cant turn around needle cancel =(

[Big_R]

am i proof that mindgames>tech skill?

i still cant turn around needle cancel =(

but u can get that double explosion edgehog...on the right...sometimes....

don't short change yourself.

[Black_jo]

am i proof that mindgames>tech skill?

i still cant turn around needle cancel =(

this is a joke right?

[Hylian]

Why hasn't anyone pointed out that you can be Technical AND Smart? There is no reason not to have good techskill. It cannot hurt you to be able to do everything, it will only make you better. The first player that comes to my mind is FastLikeTree. He is a very technical player but at the same time, he is very very smart. There are players like this...you don't have to be one or the other.


Why not practice tech skill? Why bash someone if they have tech skill? If you have tech skill AND you are smart then you are going to be really good at this game.

[Rapid_Assassin]

Why hasn't anyone pointed out that you can be Technical AND Smart? There is no reason not to have good techskill. It cannot hurt you to be able to do everything, it will only make you better. The first player that comes to my mind is FastLikeTree. He is a very technical player but at the same time, he is very very smart. There are players like this...you don't have to be one or the other.


That's like, every pro, with very few exceptions... >_>