A Fair Trade of Nerfs and Buffs?

[Rockin]

People thinks about Peach's current condition in Brawl and compare it with the Melee counterpart. Some feel that Melee Peach was better. Others feel her Brawl version improved in general. :et's looks at the nerfs and buffs our royal princess gots.

Buffs

- She activates several of her moves faster and is in general moving faster.

- Has more KO potiental

- Her Forawrd B has been improved in terms of speed

- Umbrella top is wider.

- She can combo better

- Her turnips are bigger. Because of the formula for Brawl, she can catch turnips/items while in the middle of her aerial

- Because she could pull out the same three items, the beam sword has been improved.

Nerfs

- Dsmash power has been decreased dramatically

- Umbrella stick is longer, so it's possible that she can be punished in the air.

- Because of the new formula, fast falling seems to be slightly slower for Peach.

- The Stich could possibly be nerfed.

- Because of the new formula, opponents can catch the turnips/items you throw at them during an aerial move.


While she has more buffs then nerfs, the nerfs seem critical to a peach player. My only question is....

Do you think is a fair trade off?

Now, before ya start posting, keep this in mind: this is a discussion. Give reasons as to why you think it's fair or not. Don't just say it with crappy reasons >>

[Shadow312]

The d-smash was decreased in terms of knock back , but from what I've seen it is still a great move to deal damage.

As for the falling slow? I dont know where people qare getting that. She fell faster in melee, but from the falling I've seen in the vids, it still gets you to the ground give a take a second or 2.

The buffs make her better

[Aeris]

I will respond to each point in red, just for clarity's sake. I might offer a disclaimer, however: I am NOT Vidjo, nor am I Ryoko. I am not an expert Peach player, but I suppose I can concede Smash competency at the very least. In other words, just take my opinions with a grain of salt. ;)

Buffs

- She activates several of her moves faster and is in general moving faster.
Easy. One of Peach's problems in Melee--the most noticeable characteristic separating her from the characters placed above her in the tiers--is speed. Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falco: all of them moved quicker than the Princess. This is a very obvious (and much-needed!) buff, and a fair one at that.

- Has more KO potiental
This is more helpful in terms of variety. Now Peach players won't be limited to using the DSmash to earn KO's! ;) (Really, I was always partial to the FAir, myself.) I think that this improvement will also help her compete with the "big dogs," so to speak.

- Her Forawrd B has been improved in terms of speed
Again, this was much-needed, and perhaps the most notable of her improvements. Many a Peach player complained about the competitive uselessness of her Forward Special, and it seems as though the Peach Bomber is easily usable in Brawl--spammable, even.

- Umbrella top is wider.
On its own, it seems almost like a completely superfluous change. Coupled with the longer umbrella stick, however, it seems perfectly fair. This will help protect from attacks that come from above, at least.

Nerfs

- Dsmash power has been decreased dramatically
At first glance, the typical response is one of outrage. But frankly, we Peach players saw this coming and it's actually quite reasonable. With more KO options, the too-powerful DSmash loses its importance, so the nerf is okay in my book. (Although I'll miss racking up damage with her Death Dress. :ohwell:)

- Umbrella stick is longer, so it's possible that she can be punished in the air.
See my above comment on the wider umbrella top. The two work well in conjunction, and I think that this will help offset her insane recovery capabilities. Again, another fair nerf.

- Because of the new formula, fast falling seems to be slower for Peach.
I guess I'm kind of ambivalent about this one. It certainly does detract from the mindgames available to her as she returns to the stage, which in turn hurts her ability to recover in the first place. Then again, with her enormous jumps, her floating, and the Peach Parasol itself, it's probably a fair trade-off. It should also be noted, though, that everyone seems to fall slower, correct? I guess it's just inevitable in this environment, and perhaps it will prove less of a nerf than we think.

Ehile she has more buffs then nerfs, the nerfs seem critical to a peach player. My only question is....

Do you think is a fair trade off?

Now, before ya start posting, keep this in mind: this is a discussion. Give reasons as to why you think it's fair or not. Don't just say it with crappy reasons >>

Hope my insight proved useful. Great little topic for discussion, though; it's wonderful to see that the Peach Discussion room is still home to at least SOME intelligent discussion! :bigthumbu

[Rockin]

Easy. One of Peach's problems in Melee--the most noticeable characteristic separating her from the characters placed above her in the tiers--is speed. Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falco: all of them moved quicker than the Princess. This is a very obvious (and much-needed!) buff, and a fair one at that.

So true. Even characters that were under her had a fair chance because of the speed of their movement and attacks. It was really annoying. Peach + fast or slightly faster = owned.

Again, this was much-needed, and perhaps the most notable of her improvements. Many a Peach player complained about the competitive uselessness of her Forward Special, and it seems as though the Peach Bomber is easily usable in Brawl--spammable, even.

Unfortunatly, that could be possible. If it's as good as it looks, it could be spammed as much as the turnips. ><;;

At first glance, the typical response is one of outrage. But frankly, we Peach players saw this coming and it's actually quite reasonable. With more KO options, the too-powerful DSmash loses its importance, so the nerf is okay in my book. (Although I'll miss racking up damage with her Death Dress. )

Hopefully, this nerf can really seperate the pros from the n00bs. Don't get me wrong though. In Melee, the Dsmash was generally the strongest Dsmash, one of the fastest moves in the game, and is the only move that can punish Crouch Cancel (which is unreal). The move's priority was insane. It wasn't invincible though as it could be punished by other people if done correctly, Compared to her buffs, I always thought it was a fair trade. Now Peach players can have the chance of being good without negative crap like "I bet if she didn't have her Dsmash, she would suck."

I guess I'm kind of ambivalent about this one. It certainly does detract from the mindgames available to her as she returns to the stage, which in turn hurts her ability to recover in the first place. Then again, with her enormous jumps, her floating, and the Peach Parasol itself, it's probably a fair trade-off. It should also be noted, though, that everyone seems to fall slower, correct? I guess it's just inevitable in this environment, and perhaps it will prove less of a nerf than we think.

I'm not sure about the 'enormous jumps' part...but everything else you said I understood. According to Gimpy's report, he said the double jump has dramatically decreased. >> In any case, it could be a small nerf or not. *shrugs*


Hope my insight proved useful. Great little topic for discussion, though; it's wonderful to see that the Peach Discussion room is still home to at least SOME intelligent discussion! :bigthumbu

Thanks, and it did greatly. We gotta have some knolege in this group.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add a few more buffs and nerfs. I need ya opinons about it and such.

[Aeris]

I'm not sure about the 'enormous jumps' part...but everything else you said I understood. According to Gimpy's report, he said the double jump has dramatically decreased. >> In any case, it could be a small nerf or not. *shrugs*

Thanks, and it did greatly. We gotta have some knolege in this group.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add a few more buffs and nerfs. I need ya opinons about it and such.

Oh, I must not have noticed! Silly me. That's sad to hear. :ohwell: Perhaps I was thinking more about the jumps' floatiness as opposed to enormousness. I would call it a nerf, since it further diminishes her great recovery. She'll still be okay, but it will hurt at least a little.

You, Ryoko, and I can form the IPP--Intelligent Peach Posters. ;) All Peach players willing to discuss intelligently are welcome to join! (Kero would be interested, I'm sure.)

And I will respond again with pleasure! Again, my thoughts in red:

Buffs

- She can combo better
Definitely fair. She was lucky to combo anything in Melee--anything that didn't involve her Parasol and DSmash, that is. ;) True, her UTilt lent itself to a few juggling setups, but she was overall lacking in the combo department. This also has a direct correlation to speed, because it seems as though the speedy characters were also the characters who were able to combo more fluidly.

- Her turnips are bigger. Because of the formula for Brawl, she can catch turnips/items while in the middle of her aerial
Doesn't really seem necessary. I mean, don't get me wrong--I personally appreciate it. ;) But speaking from a balance-oriented point of view, I don't think this was something that had to be implemented. Being able to catch turnips / items in mid-aerial seems a bit unfair; then again, can other characters do the same? If so, it's a little more evenly matched--save the fact that Peach can float and still perform an aerial. Overall, I might lean toward unfair but only slightly, and I still think that I would need hands-on gameplay myself to truly make a decision.

- Because she could pull out the same three items, the beam sword has been improved.
Your clause might be a tad misleading, but I think that you mean to say that her Down Special has been buffed because she can still pull the Beam Sword, which has been improved. If so, I think it's fair because the items are still rare, so it's not as though you'll see a Beam Sword every match. And even so, all it will do is give her improved range, which she truly needed to compete with threats like Marth. I think this is fair, and even necessary.

Nerfs

- The Stich could possibly be nerfed.
Nerfed as in less powerful, or nerfed as in removed? I haven't heard anything about our beloved Stitchface, so I'm curious as to what happened (if anything yet).

- Because of the new formula, opponents can catch the turnips/items you throw at them during an aerial move.
Well, this answers my question from above regarding whether or not other characters could catch items mid-aerial also. :chuckle: I think it works fine to help balance out the advantage that Peach gains from being able to reuse turnips mid-aerial. Sounda fair enough to me. (And Peach ends up coming out on top because she can float while performing an aerial, so I'm still content.)

[crystal107]

Aeris - I SOOO agree with you about everything.
I think I may like the new peach, since it was a pain with her slower attacks against fast foes.
Dsmash kicked ***, but it's not enough to have one powerful move because you can't use it at any situation - it worked in very limited situations - it's punishable. Now there is more choice, let's say her Fsmash was mostly usueless against fast foes like fox, you could usually use it while fox using his up B, and I can't remember myself using it oftenly against sheik either.

Let's just play the game when it comes out and decide if she is better or not :P

[Nicktendo]

I think I personally like the buffs more than nerf. Being faster, more combos and KO potential I really like.

I did find myself being punished enough from the top when my jump was cancelled, or umbrella. slower fall speed and umbrella down is kinda annoying for me but we'll have to see how much of a drawback it really is. Also lessed jump could mean more parasol usage which could be more punished.

Im glad the dsmash is nerfed personally. I thought it was ridicilously cheap at times. :laugh: Turnips being able to be caught in midair aerials sounds like it will lessen turnips usefellness if the person does it consistently, and turnips are a bigger target to.

Stich face knockback is nerfed?

Also did you forget her 2nd jump is really reduced in height?

[Williampettysan]

I agree, I will play Peach around double then I use to now. She was very slow which gave me many problems... But looking at her on youtube she's so awsome. :chuckle:

[Nicktendo]

Yeah I cant wait to try her out in her new style, I like the sound of the buffs alot :)

[Williampettysan]

The best buff is her sexier look. :D

[princesspeachluver13]

...that's childish.
anyway, um, I think they made Peach's Parasol stick longer because they made the top wider, so if her opponent(s) tries/try to attack her, they would get hurt the same percent of times as she would hurt her opponent(s) in melee, depending on the player's skill, of course.

[Williampettysan]

Chilidish, but true. T_T Anyway you can't take a joke. D:

If it's taller, then it leaves her a lot more open like the top dosen't even matter, since most people aren't stupid enough to jump on top of her umbrella, we leave that to the enemies in the SEE.

[princesspeachluver13]

also, i think they made it easier to catch items midair so that fights will not seem so one-sided when one player is going to the ledge, and the player on solid ground throws an item, and the player recovering can only dodge the item, and probably miss the ledge.

[Williampettysan]

Well, it that part only matters with your friends since CPU are to stupid to catch items... No literally. <_< Plus in the E for all videos, no one bothered catching them. So I guess that would only be a problem for some people.

[princesspeachluver13]

well, that probably is true, but what does Rockin mean that "she can combo better?"

[Williampettysan]

I dunno, who said that? :S

It does most likley mean awsome at combos, for some reason, wouldn't Peach being faster then Kirby make Kirby keep dissapearing from the sides?

[Nicktendo]

her moves link better

like her dash attack is 2 hits, and it pops them up right above in the air above peach, perfect for an aerial

more combo potential ftw

[iron blade]

Simply put, YES.

[Rockin]

You, Ryoko, and I can form the IPP--Intelligent Peach Posters. ;) All Peach players willing to discuss intelligently are welcome to join! (Kero would be interested, I'm sure.)

And I will respond again with pleasure! Again, my thoughts in red:

Your clause might be a tad misleading, but I think that you mean to say that her Down Special has been buffed because she can still pull the Beam Sword, which has been improved. If so, I think it's fair because the items are still rare, so it's not as though you'll see a Beam Sword every match. And even so, all it will do is give her improved range, which she truly needed to compete with threats like Marth. I think this is fair, and even necessary.

No, I mean that the item itself is buffed, and because she could pull out the beam sword, it gives her more of an avantage then it did before. I'm pretty sure they're still rare.

Nerfed as in less powerful, or nerfed as in removed? I haven't heard anything about our beloved Stitchface, so I'm curious as to what happened (if anything yet).

Nerfed as in less knockback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGK3NTVTj0&feature=user (This video shows the closest pro play of both Peach and Pikachu. This is also where you can catch items in midair.)

0:39 - 0:47 - Watch the percentage of what he has and how the knockback was. At first, I thought it was a ditto, but because it did over 30% of damaged, it was confirmed as a stich. It looks weaker, at least from a 23% hit. You would think Pikachu would've flown a bit farther.

So I guess I could say the knockback has been slightly weakened.


Stich face knockback is nerfed?

Also did you forget her 2nd jump is really reduced in height?

Yeah, check the vid to see the stich. and yes, I've explained that to Aeris a post ago.

Chilidish, but true. T_T Anyway you can't take a joke. D:


He's just jelous he gots competition...Peach sexiness ftw :D

also, i think they made it easier to catch items midair so that fights will not seem so one-sided when one player is going to the ledge, and the player on solid ground throws an item, and the player recovering can only dodge the item, and probably miss the ledge.

Not really. See, in Melee, you could do that. catch items while on the ground or in mid air. Most who got the balls to do it air dodges it, presses A (to catch it), and then fast fall to the ground. Some don't do that against a sitch or a bom-omb because of the risk of actually mistiming it. There's several people who could catch it without air dodging it. But both of these are like...difficult techniques, especially in the heat of a fight. This new formula might make catching more easy. We'll just have to see.

well, that probably is true, but what does Rockin mean that "she can combo better?"

That's it, just combo better.

In Melee, her combo system was limited and mostly situational. Common combos were Dair to Nair, Dair to Dsmash, Dtilt to nair or Up B. It was just...small. You couldn't do awsome combos that kept opponents in their place like Capt. Falcon's Uthrow, uair, uair, uair and finishing off with a Knee or a spike. Or Marth's Ken combos. Or Fox's....combos (he's so good, all his moves could combo you if played right). Even some of the lower tiered then her could combo. Peach. Just. COULDN'T

Now that the tilts have been made better and some of her throws, she's more dangerous know, in some sense.

[crystal107]

No, I mean that the item itself is buffed, and because she could pull out the beam sword, it gives her more of an avantage then it did before. I'm pretty sure they're still rare.



Nerfed as in less knockback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGK3NTVTj0&feature=user (This video shows the closest pro play of both Peach and Pikachu. This is also where you can catch items in midair.)

0:39 - 0:47 - Watch the percentage of what he has and how the knockback was. At first, I thought it was a ditto, but because it did over 30% of damaged, it was confirmed as a stich. It looks weaker, at least from a 23% hit. You would think Pikachu would've flown a bit farther.

So I guess I could say the knockback has been slightly weakened.



Yeah, check the vid to see the stich. and yes, I've explained that to Aeris a post ago.



He's just jelous he gots competition...Peach sexiness ftw :D



Not really. See, in Melee, you could do that. catch items while on the ground or in mid air. Most who got the balls to do it air dodges it, presses A (to catch it), and then fast fall to the ground. Some don't do that against a sitch or a bom-omb because of the risk of actually mistiming it. There's several people who could catch it without air dodging it. But both of these are like...difficult techniques, especially in the heat of a fight. This new formula might make catching more easy. We'll just have to see.



That's it, just combo better.

In Melee, her combo system was limited and mostly situational. Common combos were Dair to Nair, Dair to Dsmash, Dtilt to nair or Up B. It was just...small. You couldn't do awsome combos that kept opponents in their place like Capt. Falcon's Uthrow, uair, uair, uair and finishing off with a Knee or a spike. Or Marth's Ken combos. Or Fox's....combos (he's so good, all his moves could combo you if played right). Even some of the lower tiered then her could combo. Peach. Just. COULDN'T

Now that the tilts have been made better and some of her throws, she's more dangerous know, in some sense.

The combo part - I so agree... as a peach player, those are exactly the combos I used... which is sad, she can't combo much... if she can combo better in brawl, I'll be more than happy :P

[Aeris]

No, I mean that the item itself is buffed, and because she could pull out the beam sword, it gives her more of an avantage then it did before. I'm pretty sure they're still rare.

Nerfed as in less knockback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGK3NTVTj0&feature=user (This video shows the closest pro play of both Peach and Pikachu. This is also where you can catch items in midair.)

0:39 - 0:47 - Watch the percentage of what he has and how the knockback was. At first, I thought it was a ditto, but because it did over 30% of damaged, it was confirmed as a stich. It looks weaker, at least from a 23% hit. You would think Pikachu would've flown a bit farther.

So I guess I could say the knockback has been slightly weakened.

lol Okay, I think we were both on the same page about the Beam Sword, we just explained it differently. But we both agree, so that's a plus.

Interesting...the stitchface still does the same amount of damage (about 34%), but the knockback IS noticeably less. On the other hand, remember that Peach now has increased KO potential with other moves. So while the stitchface has been phased out as a KO move in and of itself, the veggie still retains the potential to rack up damage, thus setting Peach up to KO with some of her other buffed moves. It's really just a realignment of how to play Peach: start off from a distance, using turnips to build damage, and then close in for the kill.

[Layupfreak]

Her Moves definatley link better.

[Penguyen]

I wonder if the supposedly nerfed stitchface applies to all other turnips. Can anyone answer this?

[Rockin]

lol Okay, I think we were both on the same page about the Beam Sword, we just explained it differently. But we both agree, so that's a plus.

Interesting...the stitchface still does the same amount of damage (about 34%), but the knockback IS noticeably less. On the other hand, remember that Peach now has increased KO potential with other moves. So while the stitchface has been phased out as a KO move in and of itself, the veggie still retains the potential to rack up damage, thus setting Peach up to KO with some of her other buffed moves. It's really just a realignment of how to play Peach: start off from a distance, using turnips to build damage, and then close in for the kill.

Yeah...but ****it! I kinda missed the knocked back. Maybe i'm just overreacting. It looks like it still does its job, except it's less...

I wonder if the supposedly nerfed stitchface applies to all other turnips. Can anyone answer this?


Normal ones are the same. Ditto one could be nerfed, but I doubt it. If it's nerfed, it'd be no more powerful then a ordinary turnip.

[Penguyen]

Normal ones are the same. Ditto one could be nerfed, but I doubt it. If it's nerfed, it'd be no more powerful then a ordinary turnip.

Kool thanks for that. I was starting to get worried :p

[airgemini]

Did anyone see the Dot faced turnip? Is that the one you guys are talking about? I wonder if they added any different kinds of faces.

[Rockin]

Did anyone see the Dot faced turnip? Is that the one you guys are talking about? I wonder if they added any different kinds of faces.

The video I put up was a stichface. Not Dot Eyed/Ditto turnip.

[airgemini]

The one between Pikachu and Peach? Yeah it looks like the knockback was decreased but it still seems like a good killing move to me.......Wait did the Peach smash throw it? Maybe that affected the knockback.

[Aeris]

Yeah...but ****it! I kinda missed the knocked back. Maybe i'm just overreacting. It looks like it still does its job, except it's less...

Normal ones are the same. Ditto one could be nerfed, but I doubt it. If it's nerfed, it'd be no more powerful then a ordinary turnip.

Well, we'll wait and see. I'll need my own hands-on impressions to really determine whether or not this nerf will be substantial enough to warrant a completely different approach. I don't foresee it being a huge problem, though. ;)

[Rockin]

What would you say was the improvement we definitly need? Like, out of all that we got, what was that one key thing that gave us a disadvantage?

IMO, it would have to be the speed. Again, in Melee, there were characters that could out run her. Therefore, outrunning led to delivering the moves faster and evading faster.

[Nicktendo]

more speed and combo ablity is what I look forward to most.

and Imo, the dmash nerf was necesscary (not saying to the extent it is) and stichface knockback was a little intense at times but their so rare that it was fine. but still, 34% is great

[airgemini]

Yeah the stichface is fine still, but why'd they have to nerf her double jump so much?! I think its the shortest mid-air jump so far but I'm over it........Is it me or do a lot of characters seem to only have vertical recoveries? I guess its a good thing for Peach then since hers is kinda both a vertical and horizontal recovery.

[Aeris]

What would you say was the improvement we definitly need? Like, out of all that we got, what was that one key thing that gave us a disadvantage?

IMO, it would have to be the speed. Again, in Melee, there were characters that could out run her. Therefore, outrunning led to delivering the moves faster and evading faster.

Exactly. Because her slowness was not just in movement, but in combo ability, as well. It really affected her whole game, which just goes to show what a huge factor speed was in Melee. Honestly, I'm expecting great things this time around. :)