Ike: Perfect and Unuseable

[Pink Reaper]

Well, I was thinking about my time at E for All today and I realized something about Ike. He is perfect. He's exactly what someone would want for a Smash Bros. game. He's strong, he's got range, he's heavy, he has a pretty good recovery and he has an amazingly powerful Final Smash. Really, he's the perfect character. For a free for all, all out, items on, 10 stock, no time limit smash fest. Ike is the character that Sakurai wants him to be, a character that is great for free for alls, and this was made painfully apparent at E for All. In every one of the four player free for alls that were being played on the center stage, Ike was positively unstoppable. However, when played in a one on one match where both players basically ignored items(i.e how most competitive players play right now) he was useless. Too slow to hit, his ridiculous power made no difference, he was easily destroyed. The thing is, he's not going to change. He's not going to be made into a competitive character. He is as Sakurai wants him, because Sakurai is only thinking about casual gamers. Now, im sure you're saying to yourself "Sakurai would never do that, he would never forsake us", but think about it, the wii is being advertised as a console for NON-gamers, for people who don't normally play games. He's not looking to make Brawl competitive, he's looking to make it fun for people who don't normally play games, and in all honesty, that's what he's done. Ike was a lot of fun to play in the free for all setting, and to be honest, I like the way he is, he'll make the game a lot of fun when its me and a group of friends playing for fun. But as a character, I neither expect Ike to change nor do I expect him to be competitive.

Now, obviously for everyone who just wants to play Ike, and doesn't care about the tournament scene, this doesn't really matter and rest assured, your favorite character is awesome for casual play. But for those of you wanting a powerful character to take into tourneys, I suggest you look elsewhere.

P.S I understand that there will be a lot of people who disagree with me, but please refrain from flaming meaningless single line posts about how I know nothing. If you played at E for All and got a different feel about Ike, then we can discuss that, maybe you found a way around his weaknesses, but please don't just attack me from what I experienced.

[The_Corax_King]

This thread is a waste of time...


I hate how people rant on about Ike being crappy when they themselves haven't touched the game... EVERYONE who played at the demo was new to brawl... you can't expect anyone to have unlocked any potential ike has beneath the surface... and to say Sakurai ignores the tournament scene is also a very unfounded remark...

I can't wait for Ike to KRUSH all the haters 1v1 when brawl comes out...

[orintemple]

What do you mean "Sakurai wouldn't forsake us." OF COURSE HE WOULD! He isn't marketing this game to hardcore players. He is marketing it to the majority, which is definitely not the hardcore crowd. No game developer is stupid enough to make a game that caters to the hardcore players, unless it is done subtly like World of Warcraft where you don't notice it until it bites you in the ***.

Same goes with Ike. Ike may not be good with tourney rules but... what percent of people who play Smash use those rules? Probably about 10% max I would guess.

[Kirby knight]

I hate and I mean I hate, how people think they can put words in Sakurai's mouth.

Can you answer me a few questions TC?

1. If a character is not great in competitive play does that mean that Sakurai only had casual play in mind when he was developing that character? Take Link in SSB, and Kirby in SSBM. They're not the best of characters when it comes to competitive play so by your notion Sakurai only made them for casual players?

2. Equality, It is impossible to make every single character equal with another (Unless of course it's a fighting game with only one character). There are going to be good characters and there are going to be bad ones.

Has there ever been a fighting game with characters that were perfectly equal with one another?

You have no idea how hard it is to make a game of this caliber. You have no idea how hard it is to try and balance every single character in this game.

Stop complaining, instead of complaining do something about it, by creating your own fighting game with a plethora of different characters and fighting styles and make them equal with each other.

I also will say this, what you have played was a demo. Not the full version of the game. Things in that demo are liable to change upon Brawl's full release. It's alright to have an "impression" of a character but there is no way you could completely analyze that said character based on your little play time with the demo.

Did people know how to wavedash when they first got Melee upon it's release? Did they know how to do all the combo's and other things with characters as soon as they picked up the game? No, so reserve you full judgment until you can play the full version of the game.

-Knight

[Pink Reaper]

This thread is a waste of time...


I hate how people rant on about Ike being crappy when they themselves haven't touched the game... EVERYONE who played at the demo was new to brawl... you can't expect anyone to have unlocked any potential ike has beneath the surface... and to say Sakurai ignores the tournament scene is also a very unfounded remark...

I can't wait for Ike to KRUSH all the haters 1v1 when brawl comes out...

You need to understand something, Smash is not as deep a game as some people want to say it is. Any given character has only 9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws. This means that it really isn't hard to see the potential in a character, even early on. There is no "Beneath the surface", none of his attacks combo, he's incredibly slow, and monstrously powerful. Thats it. And yes, Sakurai does ignore the tournament scene. Yes, I'm fully aware that Sakurai himself has said that he is aware of the tournament scene and is intrigued by it, but at the end of the day, its still a Nintendo game and Nintendo cares waaaay too much about the millions of casuals who own wii's over the 7,000 or so smashers on Smashboards. And Im not saying Ike is crappy, Ike is INCREDIBLE, just not in the way WE think of smash characters.

I hate and I mean I hate, how people think they can put words in Sakurai's mouth.

Can you answer me a few questions TC?

1. If a character is not great in competitive play does that mean that Sakurai only had casual play in mind when he was developing that character? Take Link in SSB, and Kirby in SSBM. They're not the best of characters when it comes to competitive play so by your notion Sakurai only made them for casual players?

2. Equality, It is impossible to make every single character equal with another (Unless of course it's a fighting game with only one character). There are going to be good characters and there are going to be bad ones.

Has there ever been a fighting game with characters that were perfectly equal with one another?

You have no idea how hard it is to make a game of this caliber. You have no idea how hard it is to try and balance every single character in this game.

Stop complaining, instead of complaining do something about it, by creating your own fighting game with a plethora of different characters and fighting styles and make them equal with each other.

I also will say this, what you have played was a demo. Not the full version of the game. Things in that demo are liable to change upon Brawl's full release. It's alright to have an "impression" of a character but there is no way you could completely analyze that said character based on your little play time with the demo.

Did people know how to wavedash when they first got Melee upon it's release? Did they know how to do all the combo's and other things with characters as soon as they picked up the game? No, so reserve you full judgment until you can play the full version of the game.

-Knight


Im not complaining about Ike, I LIKE Ike the way he is, I think he'll be fun to play as. Also, Im not putting words in Sakurai's mouth, I'm just pointing out that with Nintendo's current position on making games for casual gamers, they will more likely than not make characters that don't really work for serious 1v1 competitive play. Your citing of Link and Kirby is also out of place as neither games were created to be ultra competative, 1v1, only Fox on FD(no, this is not what I think of competitve smash, I'm using hyperbole) They were made to be Free For All party games. Kirby and Link only sucked once you brought them into serious 1v1 play and exploited glitches like L-Canceling and Wavedashing(Once again, I'm pro exploits, not anti) Had things like this never been discovered, those characters wouldn't seem so horrible in their respective games(I just called my main a horrible character v.v) Also, don't forget, this is a NEXT-GEN game, there may not be glitches for us to exploit, we may have to learn to play characters on their most basic levels.

You are right however, I did only play a demo, so things are subject to change, but still you have to realize, the game was already far along in development, its not likely that Ike will have a full overhaul. However I wont say that its NOT possible for him to change for the better, and I will say, I hope he does(Im secretly a Fire Emblem fan boy, dont tell Kirby)

[Kirby knight]

You need to understand something, Smash is not as deep a game as some people want to say it is. Any given character has only 9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws. This means that it really isn't hard to see the potential in a character, even early on. There is no "Beneath the surface", none of his attacks combo, he's incredibly slow, and monstrously powerful. Thats it. And yes, Sakurai does ignore the tournament scene. Yes, I'm fully aware that Sakurai himself has said that he is aware of the tournament scene and is intrigued by it, but at the end of the day, its still a Nintendo game and Nintendo cares waaaay too much about the millions of casuals who own wii's over the 7,000 or so smashers on Smashboards. And Im not saying Ike is crappy, Ike is INCREDIBLE, just not in the way WE think of smash characters.

I'm aware how people exaggerate how deep of a game SSB's is, it's quite basic. (Please note I'm in no way talking about mindgames, playing tactics or whatever you want to call them as they are a subjective matter_.

"And yes, Sakurai does ignore the tournament scene" if your going to say something like this please direct me to where Sakurai said this himself. Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth unless you know the entirely of the circumstances surrounding the issues.

-Knight

[The_Corax_King]

You need to understand something, Smash is not as deep a game as some people want to say it is. Any given character has only 9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws.This means that it really isn't hard to see the potential in a character, even early on. There is no "Beneath the surface", none of his attacks combo, he's incredibly slow, and monstrously powerful. Thats it. And yes, Sakurai does ignore the tournament scene. Yes, I'm fully aware that Sakurai himself has said that he is aware of the tournament scene and is intrigued by it, but at the end of the day, its still a Nintendo game and Nintendo cares waaaay too much about the millions of casuals who own wii's over the 7,000 or so smashers on Smashboards. And Im not saying Ike is crappy, Ike is INCREDIBLE, just not in the way WE think of smash characters.



This post stinks of noobdom...


To say smash is limitted by its simple controls just proves your ignorance... smash is possibly one of the most dynamic fighters out there... because of the FREEDOM of movement and attacks... you aren't limited like in other fighters... and aren't wasting your time doing a complex mash of buttons just to do one attack...

and look at the ice climbers... you think people could have seen their potential by looking at their "9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws" at a demo?

[Kirby knight]

This post stinks of noobdom...


To say smash is limitted by its simple controls just proves your ignorance... smash is possibly one of the most dynamic fighters out there... because of the FREEDOM of movement and attacks... you aren't limited like in other fighters... and aren't wasting your time doing a complex mash of buttons just to do one attack...

and look at the ice climbers... you think people could have seen their potential by looking at their "9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws" at a demo?

To be perfectly honest you have to admit that Smash is very simple. It's not hard at all to pick up and play. (Note I'm not talking about "Competitive play").

I personally don't think one can give a detailed analysis of a character they had so little time playing with, reserve those judgments to you play the actual game, not the demo.

-Knight

[The_Corax_King]

Of course smash is simple... but it's also dynamic... yeah you have a small set of directional attacks... but you are free to use those attacks in creative ways...

I agree with you... but what Pink Reaper is saying is that smash is so simple that you can see everything a character can do with a few minutes of gameplay: "You need to understand something, Smash is not as deep a game as some people want to say it is. Any given character has only 9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws.This means that it really isn't hard to see the potential in a character, even early on. There is no 'Beneath the surface'"

[Pink Reaper]

This post stinks of noobdom...


To say smash is limitted by its simple controls just proves your ignorance... smash is possibly one of the most dynamic fighters out there... because of the FREEDOM of movement and attacks... you aren't limited like in other fighters... and aren't wasting your time doing a complex mash of buttons just to do one attack...

and look at the ice climbers... you think people could have seen their potential by looking at their "9 basic attacks, 3 smash attacks, 4 special attacks, and 4 throws" at a demo?

Im not going to debate the depth of Smash with you, I love smash, I understand that there is an amazing amount of depth in smash from your freedom of movement and attack, but this thread is about IKE, you know, the character with such slow movements that he is restricted from that depth. You need to think very carefully about this, Ike is incredibly strong and incredibly slow. If you do land an attack on your opponent, he's either going to be sent so far away that you cant combo, or your not going to be fast enough to get a second hit in. And yes, I do understand that there is a new form of L-Canceling in Brawl(or at least the Demo, all things subject to change and all that) but you Ike is actually restricted in his use of it as it is basically impossible to shffl with him as his attacks come out too slowly to both Short hop and fast fall. As for the demo, you have to understand that everyone there was actually looking for that depth, looking for those advanced techs, looking for those strategies(btw, Diddy Kong, dthrow->Uair, it works, abuse it) thats why characters like Meta Knight, Mario, Pit and Peach were so popular, because strategies were found for them(Hell, theres already a Meta Knight guide) because WE WERE LOOKING FOR THEM. Lots of people played Ike, lots of people tried lots of things, not a lot of things were working.


Edit: Corax, I wasn't saying that we could easily find the depth of every character right away, I know thats impossible, I know what I'm saying might sound harsh, but I'm not talking about Brawl as a whole, I'm talking about Ike the character, and for the most part, it seems like he doesn't have a large amount of potential. Yes I know you cant really SEE potential, but what I'm saying is that I did play the game, I did play as Ike and I did try to combo and it didn't work. Yes I know it takes a LONG time for a character to be fully fleshed out look at DK, his potential was only recently really discovered and its nearly the end of Melee's lifetime. But once again, Ike doesn't really seem to have a lot of potential, if anything because his attacks are TOO strong. If he sees a reduction in power when Brawl is released, he could be a more useable character, but once again, as it stands, he isn't much for 1v1.

[Roith]

you are right R.I.P. ike is a beast in free for all but is too slow for1 v1's. I am an extremly competive marth player ( surprise :) ) and there was one kid who i rivaled with a fox player. i proved i was better after 3 monthes. in brawl he is going to be sonic ( possble the fastest charecter in brawl ) and i want to be ike and i will be ike and i will beat him in 1 v 1's and i will crush him utterly without mercy i love competive smash, i don't casul gaming is fun i think competive is fun ( well to me at least ). i can't let him beat and all we do is 1 on 1.

anybody can tell me he sucks it can't be done hes absolutly horrible


i will main ike and ike only i will not be anybody else!

[Gill]

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it, creating a balanced fighting game is hard, right, but ANYBODY can see how extreme Ike is. He's way stronger than Bowser, but way slower as well. No matter how optimistic people are about Ike, a very skilled player who mains Bowser (Gimpy), said Ike is insanely slow in his attacks. That keeps coming up in my mind.

It is true you don't learn how to fully utilize a character in a few minutes of playing, but really how long does it take to see how fast/slow a character's moves are? THATS the main problem with Ike. The answer may be complex, but the question is not: How do we get around Ike's startup lag?

Heres where people start bringing up Super Armor. Well if Ike is able to take full advantage of his Super Armor, then he'll pretty much be broken. You still take damage in SA but what does it matter if you can still attack, and you hit five times harder than your opponent does? Ike is _too extreme._ He's going to either be useless because of his lag, or overpowered because of SA. I can't really see a middle ground. *Headscratch.*

[Pulse]

Iken could be very good in 1-on-1s, but in a style that differs greatly from the current "SHFLLE and Run" stratgey found in the competitive scene now. Ike is about punishment. You MUST play defensivly with him, as he is not meant for rushing and combos.

[TheJalapeno]

So I don't really give a flying f*ck I'm playing Ike no matter what.

Yes, even on One-And-Ones

[Gill]

So I don't really give a flying f*ck I'm playing Ike no matter what.

Yes, even on One-And-Ones

Same here. Hopefully Nintendo will balance him out a bit, but I wouldn't bet on it. Either way who cares. Ike pwns.

[Camera_Guy]

Um... I like Ike, but when your talking about good recovery, what do you mean? Are you talking about his side B?

[Hippochinfat]

All characters are useable in smash 64, melee and brawl.

[Pyr0]

Pink...

Smash is not being made for casuals...

Please read this post http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=130712

After reading it, you get what I mean?

[Pink Reaper]

Pink...

Smash is not being made for casuals...

Please read this post http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=130712

After reading it, you get what I mean?

Aye, I understand that Brawl will be competitive, but once again, this thread is about Ike, not Brawl as a whole. Although I will say this, your thread talks about the new L-canceling mechanic as just fast falling an attack. Thats not quite right. You have to fast fall FIRST, then start your attack. This actually seems more difficult and will more than likely widen the gap between casuals and competitive players. BUT this tread is about Ike, and Ike will have some problems with this new mechanic. As it is, its impossible to just short hop Ike's attacks, let alone Short hop, Fast fall THEN attack. Not sure how well he'll fair with full hopped attacks but it will probably at least be possible.

[Camera_Guy]

Pink Reaper, what do you mean by good recovery

[Pink Reaper]

ForwardB->jump->UpB can get you back from pretty **** far. Combined with Ike's Super armour making it so you can't knock him out of his UpB and you've got a pretty good recovery. Not the best mind you, and a little predictable, but its still pretty good.

[The_Corax_King]

Omg... maybe people won't play by spamming shffl in brawl!?!?

[Pink Reaper]

Omg... maybe people won't play by spamming shffl in brawl!?!?

Yes, and maybe they'll forgo the grab game and rely solely on special moves!!!!!!111oneone

Ike is actually the character who will have no choice but to rely on the new L-canceling mechanic because of, you know, the tremendous lag. Granted, at least you won't have to worry about shffl spam with Ike >_>

[raphtmarqui]

The E for All thing was only a demo anyway. Characters could drastically change.

[Pink Reaper]

Possible, but unlikely. Unless the game saw another release date change its doubtful that anything will drastically change.

[Iceman12]

Easy fix to startup lag is to remove key frames from the startup animations. I'm going to use Ike, along with most of the other sword users except Link, as I'm just no good with him. Ike could be hard to play in 1v1, but he could prove badass in team battles, nobody knows yet. All we know is that he's a beast in free for alls and that he's slow~.

[Pink Reaper]

Maybe you'll get lucky and they wont have noticed the Super Armor Glitch from the demo and at least you'll have some spamable attacks.

[Iceman12]

As awesome as that would be, I don't think thats going to be the case.

[fire_wulf]

ForwardB->jump->UpB can get you back from pretty **** far. Combined with Ike's Super armour making it so you can't knock him out of his UpB and you've got a pretty good recovery. Not the best mind you, and a little predictable, but its still pretty good.

Can you do that.... I didn't get the opportunity to play the demo... but from what i have read on the boards... it was my understanding that after doing a >B you would go into a free fall where you are unable to do anything at all.


Really sorry about following posts... internet froze up on me... Couldn't figure out how to delete the whole post

[fire_wulf]

ForwardB->jump->UpB can get you back from pretty **** far. Combined with Ike's Super armour making it so you can't knock him out of his UpB and you've got a pretty good recovery. Not the best mind you, and a little predictable, but its still pretty good.

Can you do that.... I didn't get the opportunity to play the demo... but from what i have read on the boards... it was my understanding that after doing a >B you would go into a free fall where you are unable to do anything at all.

[fire_wulf]

ForwardB->jump->UpB can get you back from pretty **** far. Combined with Ike's Super armour making it so you can't knock him out of his UpB and you've got a pretty good recovery. Not the best mind you, and a little predictable, but its still pretty good.

Can you do that.... I didn't get the opportunity to play the demo... but from what i have read on the boards... it was my understanding that after doing a >B you would go into a free fall where you are unable to do anything at all.

[True Fool]

You say it as though having an overpowered FFA character is better than having an underpowered 1v1 character. They're both balance issues. I'm not saying that he'll change him, but the way you say it, it sounds like he's messing up both play-groups and has no intention of fixing it.

I don't care too much that he's a bad character, it's a fighting game, some characters just don't perform as well. But he's poorly represented, that's the only reason I want him to change.

[Gill]

But he's poorly represented, that's the only reason I want him to change.

Seriously. In PoR (Haven't played RD yet), Ike had the problem of possibly being RNG screwed in his strength. His speed was good. When the hell did he show such massive strength? Was it in RD?

Also, doesn't Ike's side-B make him go into freefall?

[True Fool]

Seriously. In PoR (Haven't played RD yet), Ike had the problem of possibly being RNG screwed in his strength. His speed was good. When the hell did he show such massive strength? Was it in RD?

Also, doesn't Ike's side-B make him go into freefall?

Yes, I agree. They could have at least given him his larger look from RD.

And yes, >B causes him to freefall. So he either gets no horizontal distance or no vertical distance for his recovery. Great.

[Gill]

Yes, I agree. They could have at least given him his larger look from RD.

And yes, >B causes him to freefall. So he either gets no horizontal distance or no vertical distance for his recovery. Great.

Yaaay! Ike also has terrible recovery!....GRRRAAAHJOIGRJ *Flips desk over.*

Hey, you and me, True Fool? We're Ike buddies. YOU KNOW WHY?! Cause we're both up, in the middle of the night, postin' about Ike.

:D

[Pink Reaper]

You can jump out of free fall in Brawl. The same happens with Meta Knights Down B teleport, your disappear then reappear in free fall, but you can jump out of it.

[Gill]

You can jump out of free fall in Brawl. The same happens with Meta Knights Down B teleport, your disappear then reappear in free fall, but you can jump out of it.

So Ike CAN ForwardB->jump->UpB? o_O

[Pink Reaper]

Thats what I said isn't it >_>

[Gill]

Thats what I said isn't it >_>

So basically if you haven't used your second jump, you can also Side B>Jump>Side B? If so then Ike's horizontal recovery ain't that bad.

[Pink Reaper]

Ah but it is laggy(like all of his other attacks >_>) meaning that it's incredibly predictable. Forward b->Jump->Up B would be better because the Up B comes with super armour.