Slower than Bowser huh?

[Pyr0]

I've been hearing that IKE is just extremely slow and laggy, but that he has some godly attack and no-flinch frames.

Me, being the fast paced marth-wh*re that didn't like the idea of Ike being slow (specially since he was my #1 most wanted character)

But now I saw this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlhwdvf_U14&NR=1
Looks past minute 2, and you will see that Ike just kills and kills and kills some more!

So my question is:

Do you think that Ike being slower than bowser, can actually put up a fight as a good character (perhaps even high tier)?

After watching that video I believe so...

[Rakath]

Ike is a solid fighter, his lag does make most of his moves look like Falcon Punch, but each move has the force of Falcon Punch. Nobody has the time to learn his Timing to make him playable, but with work I see him mid-high tier.

Me makes me think Black Knight won't make the cut, as having a character slower, less flinching, and more powerful than Ike can either go badly, or godly. Depending on how flinchless they make him.

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

I doubt he'll be high tier with that bad recovery from Up + B, but I would say that isn't going to hurt him TOO much.

And Ike was destined to be slow IMHO, I mean he carries a 2 handed sword in one hand. that's pretty strong, to be able or capable of doing said feat.

[Pyr0]

Yeah he's recovery is quite bad, but then again, who needs recovery when you can beat the other guys with a just a couple of hits!

[Rakath]

He still has Ranger Crit as a decent recovery. It depends on if the no edgegrab on Aether is a glitch or not and how easy his timing is to learn.

[WFL]

Ike killed Fox with his b-move, I think, at 2:01 at 54% straight out of the arena, no chance, even with amazing di, of surviving. This move looked liked it had some sort of start up lag, but it didn't look like anymore than a Bowser F-smash. That's just incredible. Someone will have to check how far a Bowser F-smash at 54% against let's say Mario or maybe Captain Falcon will do, I think in Gimpy's thread he said fox was floatier in the air.

[Mccdbz5]

What good is having all that power if you aren't able to hit your opponent? I think that is the reason why Gimpyfish stated that Ike is horrendous in 1 on 1's, but does great in Free-for-All's. Reason being, in a free-for-all, there's more than just one target, giving you a better chance of actually hitting someone. In a 1 on 1, you're trying to hit one target that can most likely evade Ike's attacks with ease. I see Ike being an average fighter in Brawl, but nowhere close to being in the top tier. That's how it always is with the big, heavy characters (*cough, Donkey Kong and Bowser, cough*). :ohwell:

[Lunadis]

Why is Aether bad? Just apply it like Luigi's B Up. DI away from edgeguarders, and then far below the edge. When Ike throws his sword up, it will cut off all edgeguarders for him to make safe return. If he can use his B Forward without entering freefall, we're talking one of the better recoveries. O.o

I don't see how people can consider Ike's recovery bad. Initial flinch immunity AND an upwards projectile that cuts off meteor smash/foot stool jump attempts!? I'm sold!

As for Ike's speed, he seems more like Ganondorf from Melee than anything. He has grab and punch combo to control speedy character with really painful attacks to follow up with, as well as a Counter ability to exit combos. Ike is fine.

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

Yeah he's recovery is quite bad, but then again, who needs recovery when you can beat the other guys with a just a couple of hits!

True, but since we don't know how everyone is going to work, or all who are going to be in this could have a decent or just plain TERRIBLE outcome, based on that.


He still has Ranger Crit as a decent recovery. It depends on if the no edgegrab on Aether is a glitch or not and how easy his timing is to learn

Good point. Although I'm hoping he has a chance if he gets knocked far out of bounds to <insert Sakurai Recover quote here> .

[Joshua368]

I'd say his ability to hold his own in 1v1 fights relies almost solely on how generous Sakurai is on the no flinching attacks. He's really someone we'll have to withhold judgement on until we can have more experience...

Just because strong and slow characters sucked in Melee doesn't automatically mean it'll be the same here.

[Rakath]

Ike being heavy is only an issue if he has limited SArmor frames. Again, nobody has learned his timing, but in a few vids he gets hit while Smashing and nothing happened to him (except a minor percent up) and then his Smash kills them for being too close.

As long as DK/Bowser/Ike have enough Immunity frames they can make a higher tier than Melee had them (sanz Ike).

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

Why is Aether bad? Just apply it like Luigi's B Up. DI away from edgeguarders, and then far below the edge. When Ike throws his sword up, it will cut off all edgeguarders for him to make safe return. If he can use his B Forward without entering freefall, we're talking one of the better recoveries. O.o

I don't see how people can consider Ike's recovery bad. Initial flinch immunity AND an upwards projectile that cuts off meteor smash/foot stool jump attempts!? I'm sold!

As for Ike's speed, he seems more like Ganondorf from Melee than anything. He has grab and punch combo to control speedy character with really painful attacks to follow up with, as well as a Counter ability to exit combos. Ike is fine.



True Ike is fine, just not "High-tier" per se. Of course now that everything has changed, this too could change. (In other words, we could all be mistaken)


I did notice the Luigi reference, but a more decent comparison is Kirby, and we all know how that works ;)

His Up + B isn't bad per se, just at recovering. That is my only point. Luigi was quite a bit better at his initial jump >B, jump Up +B set up. Ike I'm not so sure.

I forget how good Ike's jump is from the videos, my computer hasn't been able to play them recently.


Edit:

As long as DK/Bowser/Ike have enough Immunity frames they can make a higher tier than Melee had them (sanz Ike).

True, but I'm sure that the weightier [Is that a word?] characters will have a seperate class tier, type thing now. (Not a tier Per se, but what's it called that other fighters have?)

And if so Ike might be a little better than the average heavy character or worse. But I'm at least expecting him to be HIGH mid at least.

I'm still doubting High tier.

[Lunadis]

As long as you can grab, you are never too slow. When playing an advanced Roy, his grab and first hit of Double Edged Dance is enough to keep my enemies under control. Ike has been shown to have a quick punch then stomp combo for his A button as well as reports of Counter being used while Pit does his forward and B which is pretty insane. He has what he needs to control quick characters.
Edit-
His Up + B isn't bad per se, just at recovering. That is my only point. Luigi was quite a bit better at his initial jump >B, jump Up +B set up. Ike I'm not so sure.I was referring to it as a recovery. Sorry I should have cleared it up. It's the fact he throws the sword up before he follows it. That makes it much harder to edge guard an Ike player who knows the exact height of Aether.

I think with something like that, all you have to do is get used to returning to the platform from below as opposed to at an angle or from the side like most characters.

[Pyr0]

I'm thinking that if Ike gets some nice no-flinch powers, he could become a "punisher" type of character, basicly wait to get attacked, and once they do Punish them with a strong blow followed up by more powah and moar and moar!

Lets just hope Sakurai does give him plenty of those No-flinch armor points.

[Marthgreil]

I don't think he is that slow. It could be that he is still not finished. I mean in POR he is really fast. I heard he was a tad slow in RD but that should not be a big issue.

[Zeela12]

If the non-knockback moves are used correctly, I'm sure he's a really good character.

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

As long as you can grab, you are never too slow. When playing an advanced Roy, his grab and first hit of Double Edged Dance is enough to keep my enemies under control. Ike has been shown to have a quick punch then stomp combo for his A button as well as reports of Counter being used while Pit does his forward and B which is pretty insane. He has what he needs to control quick characters.
Edit-

Yes, I'm sure he will be quite awesome. Considerin all of the Heavy characters seem X10 times better, and with better "Resistance" to attacks than lights, heavy characters might just dominate in the High tier.


I was referring to it as a recovery. Sorry I should have cleared it up. It's the fact he throws the sword up before he follows it. That makes it much harder to edge guard an Ike player who knows the exact height of Aether.

I understood I was just trying to point out a different point. ;) Although you are correct. I didn't think about the no-flinch-to-force back idea. Man I am tired XD.

I think with something like that, all you have to do is get used to returning to the platform from below as opposed to at an angle or from the side like most characters.

Good point. :)


I'm thinking that if Ike gets some nice no-flinch powers, he could become a "punisher" type of character, basicly wait to get attacked, and once they do Punish them with a strong blow followed up by more powah and moar and moar!

Lets just hope Sakurai does give him plenty of those No-flinch armor points.

I'm thinking MOST heavy characters will have no-flinch points. If o, I am assured all heavy fighters will be Grade-A characters.

[Mccdbz5]

I'd say his ability to hold his own in 1v1 fights relies almost solely on how generous Sakurai is on the no flinching attacks. He's really someone we'll have to withhold judgement on until we can have more experience...

Just because strong and slow characters sucked in Melee doesn't automatically mean it'll be the same here.

I completely understand that, but really, lets be realistic here; how well do you think heavy characters are honestly going to fair in Brawl? Sure, the stun resistance is a nice touch, but if the other character, lets say Fox for instance, just waits for Ike to try and attack him, he will be able to do a number of things to get away from the attack. Once/if Fox does in fact dodge the attack, he has time to counter with something that stun resistance doesn't work against, like grabbing (I'm assuming stun resistance can't block grabbing, but I could be wrong). That's just the way I see it. I'm actually hoping that I am wrong, but who knows? We'll just have to wait until the game is released to draw conclusions.

[Maben]

I couldn't tell from any of the videos that I saw...what happens when Ike does his UpB as a recovery move. When he throws the sword up does he just pause (freeze) in mid-air before jumping?

[Lunadis]

I couldn't tell from any of the videos that I saw...what happens when Ike does his UpB as a recovery move. When he throws the sword up does he just pause (freeze) in mid-air before jumping?Yeah. His rate of falling decreases a great deal.

[Rarzy]

personally i find it quite odd that Ike is the tank that he is. I mean its understandable to have a slower stronger character, but from what i've heard, etc he's meatier and packs more wallop than bowser? I mean look at the pic of him with snake holding him from behind with the sleeper...ike looks just as petite and womanly as marth did in melee. I would just think that if he's supposed to be so strong why doesn't he have more muscle on him?

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

personally i find it quite odd that Ike is the tank that he is. I mean its understandable to have a slower stronger character, but from what i've heard, etc he's meatier and packs more wallop than bowser? I mean look at the pic of him with snake holding him from behind with the sleeper...ike looks just as petite and womanly as marth did in melee. I would just think that if he's supposed to be so strong why doesn't he have more muscle on him?



I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


And every time I see that Snake holding Ike pic I laugh a lot. XD.


But looks really don't mean anything, I mean if they did, Kirby wouldn't stand a chance against Bowser. And really I thoght Ike looked pretty tall with his Zweihander sword. (I'm guessing that's what it is)

And muscles don't improve that much always even in real life, not all strong wrestlers have bursting muscles.

[SHINE FX]

Why is Aether bad? Just apply it like Luigi's B Up. DI away from edgeguarders, and then far below the edge. When Ike throws his sword up, it will cut off all edgeguarders for him to make safe return. If he can use his B Forward without entering freefall, we're talking one of the better recoveries. O.o

I don't see how people can consider Ike's recovery bad. Initial flinch immunity AND an upwards projectile that cuts off meteor smash/foot stool jump attempts!? I'm sold!

As for Ike's speed, he seems more like Ganondorf from Melee than anything. He has grab and punch combo to control speedy character with really painful attacks to follow up with, as well as a Counter ability to exit combos. Ike is fine.

Plus, there's always the Air Dodge to extra jump to make positioning aether easier.

[Rakath]

Ike in Path of Radiance usually got these stats capped:
Defense
Skill
Strength
HP (most DEF units get a max HP)
Speed (maybe, depends on your random number lucks)

So his Godtank and killing power is not out of place. Despite his petite and bish frame.

[Rarzy]

yeah that's what i'm referring too. He just looks a bit too petite and thin to be a powerhouse strong character. Mind you not as much as marth, but not much better either. If anything its the size of his sword that 'makes' him look strong at all. how to those scrawny rubber-hose arms even lift that thing?

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

yeah that's what i'm referring too. He just looks a bit too petite and thin to be a powerhouse strong character. Mind you not as much as marth, but not much better either. If anything its the size of his sword that 'makes' him look strong at all. how to those scrawny rubber-hose arms even lift that thing?

Not really. He didn't look so petite, thin maybe. Again I point out not all muscle men are fat lards that are over 9000" tall. XD.


And IIRC one game's ending says he was destined to be great. Therefore he is.

[jc1sttwin]

From watching the videos Ike doesn't look that slow

i'm still gonna pic Ike over bowser

[Lunadis]

yeah that's what i'm referring too. He just looks a bit too petite and thin to be a powerhouse strong character. Mind you not as much as marth, but not much better either. If anything its the size of his sword that 'makes' him look strong at all. how to those scrawny rubber-hose arms even lift that thing?Well, not like Ragnell is supposed to be that big to begin with. In Brawl and the FE9 art, Ragnell is so huge. But in the game, it's a simple one handed sword that Ike uses effortlessly.

[AlphaDragoon2002]

The thing that's funny to me is, Ike ISN'T slow in PoR. He attacks fast as all get out and has zero trouble wielding Ragnell at high-speed. I think they just made him slow to give him "character" in this game.

As for Ike's speed, he seems like he does have a bit of lag but his attacks are the strongest I've ever seen in Smash. It's like worse than Marth tipper strong. So his ability to fight in 1 on 1 will, as said, depend on the Ike's ability to get off his attack and the amount of no-flinch frames he has.

EDIT: What Lunadis said is absolutely correct, except Ragnell has always been two-handed (albeit not WTF huge like it is in this game, that came from FE10).

[RWB]

Ike in Path of Radiance usually got these stats capped:
Defense
Skill
Strength
HP (most DEF units get a max HP)
Speed (maybe, depends on your random number lucks)

So his Godtank and killing power is not out of place. Despite his petite and bish frame.

Ike in PoR on average caps...

Speed. That's it. Try http://fea.fewiki.net/

Strength is off by just one, same goes for skill. His strength is beaten by quite a bunch of chars, his actual attack power is in the lower half of your entire team thanks to swords and similar str, until ragnell, which kicks him up to the second forth.
His def is 2 points short, and even when capped, not that impressive.
However, he is a full 8 points from maxing HP.

So yes, Godtank and killing power is actually out of place, he should be speedy. XD
But if we go by RD, he is slow but strong and defensive...

[AlphaDragoon2002]

So yes, Godtank and killing power is actually out of place, he should be speedy. XD
But if we go by RD, he is slow but strong and defensive...

I dunno about you, but on my game in Normal mode Ike IS pretty much a one-man army and can dominate practically any opponent with ease thanks to the godhax of Aether/Ragnell. Man, he destroyed people so hard once you got that sword. I went back and did that map with all the Dragon units and owned them using Ike alone, just for kicks. :laugh:

So I say the power is quite accurate. The defense is off, because Ike is Godtank due to Aether domination (for those unaware, Aether does double damage + heals Ike for half of the amount he hits them for in PoR).

[kzee]

personally i find it quite odd that Ike is the tank that he is. I mean its understandable to have a slower stronger character, but from what i've heard, etc he's meatier and packs more wallop than bowser? I mean look at the pic of him with snake holding him from behind with the sleeper...ike looks just as petite and womanly as marth did in melee. I would just think that if he's supposed to be so strong why doesn't he have more muscle on him?

It would be nice if he has an alternate costume that makes him look like his older self in Radiant Dawn. In Radiant Dawn, Ike looks more buff than he was in PoR.

[Rakath]

Aether's effect is:
- Attack 1: Sol (Regenerate HP = Damage done)
- Attack 2: Luna (Ignore their Defense)
Both hits are standard damage for Ike (except the second one always does more... hard to tell since most of the time the second hit they have less than 10 HP)

So it's more than just double damage.

The ranged Attack helps with his hax as he can attack a few big guys out of their own attack range.

[Vortok]

Plus, there's always the Air Dodge to extra jump to make positioning aether easier.
What part of "momentum air dodge" did you not understand? Air Dodging gives no acceleration in any direction, so it won't work as an extra jump.

You also have to wait about a second before you can attack/recover. Dunno how fast you recover upon getting to the ground, though.

[-Knux-]

What part of "momentum air dodge" did you not understand? Air Dodging gives no acceleration in any direction, so it won't work as an extra jump.

You also have to wait about a second before you can attack/recover. Dunno how fast you recover upon getting to the ground, though.

Uh, I thought air dodging in the direction you were going accelerated you a bit that way while making you invincible for that short amount of time. Directional airdodging is still in ONLY in the direction you are going. Say I jumped upwards and then airdodged up. It would work because I am moving up. But I could NOT jump upwards and then airdodge right because I was not moving that way.

I don't know if I am confused by what you said or was misinformed by someone else.

[Maben]

Uh, I thought air dodging in the direction you were going accelerated you a bit that way while making you invincible for that short amount of time. Directional airdodging is still in ONLY in the direction you are going. Say I jumped upwards and then airdodged up. It would work because I am moving up. But I could NOT jump upwards and then airdodge right because I was not moving that way.

I don't know if I am confused by what you said or was misinformed by someone else.

This is not how it works, perhaps you were misinformed. If you jump up and airdodge, you airdodge ALONG your jump curve. Airdodging no longer gives any extra distance.

Also, anyone here play Final Fantasy X? I'm not a FE fan or have I ever played a FE game but Ike reminds me a lot of Auron. He hits like a tank (much harder than any other character) but lacks speed.

[Ferro De Lupe]

Well, it's rumored that Bowser is likely to be top tier now, so I suppose it could work to his advantage.

[lukintosh]

Well, it's rumored that Bowser is likely to be top tier now, so I suppose it could work to his advantage.

I thought he was much improved, but only to mid tier... :ohwell:

[Lunadis]

I dunno about you, but on my game in Normal mode Ike IS pretty much a one-man army and can dominate practically any opponent with ease thanks to the godhax of Aether/Ragnell. Man, he destroyed people so hard once you got that sword. I went back and did that map with all the Dragon units and owned them using Ike alone, just for kicks. :laugh:

So I say the power is quite accurate. The defense is off, because Ike is Godtank due to Aether domination (for those unaware, Aether does double damage + heals Ike for half of the amount he hits them for in PoR).I always play it on Hard and it's the same deal. Ike is the ultimate unit. Other than the specal units you get near the end of the game, it's only characters like Nephenee or Boyd can come even close to his Godmode. I have never, ever seen Lord Ike die on hard and I usually give him Provoke.

[Gimpyfish62]

ike is WAY slower than any melee tourney, unless there is a change from the demo (i hope) he is going to be sooooo horrendous.

and no, bowser is not top tier, he's only slightly better lol